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EU/UN want shared control of the Internet

Discussion in 'Alley of Dangerous Angles' started by St. James, Oct 3, 2005.

  1. Felinoid

    Felinoid Who did the what now? ★ SPS Account Holder

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    Actually, St. James's analogy makes sense. And so does Tal's. The only problem with these analogies is that they describe a specific product that is being created and then used (and subsequently used up). Internet domains are more like parcels of land. Noone actually created it (noone mortal, for those of a religious mindset ;) ), what they did is discover it and lay rightful claim. The Internet would then be a entire world unto itself.

    It's as if one country claimed the rights to a specific (colonizable) planet, and then gave out the land as they saw fit. Even doing it in a fair and impartial fashion would make many people's ire rise. The thought of a monopoly on an entire world invites abuse of power, whether or not it's actually happening.

    So long as all the EU/UN want is a share of the responsibility, I say they should have it. But if they're going to make money selling domains, then there ought to be a one-time buy-in that would make that country a business partner (in Internet Domain Sales). Of course it'd have to be small enough that after a number of sold domains, it'd pay for itself, but large enough to befit the enormity of the Internet's invention.
     
  2. St. James Gems: 4/31
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    Actually, my analogy specifically stated that other countries built their own infrastructure, but apparently you (Taluntain) did not read it very closely.

    Your roads analogy is interesting for the inherit anti-capitalism of it. You are actually stating that someone does not have a right to their invention if it is really, really important to the rest of the world.

    I must point out that some are saying that they must have a share in control of domain names for national security reasons. They fail to realize that America giving up control of domain names is therefore giving up national security.

    Why would anyone expect America to do this? How is that fair at all?
     
  3. Alavin

    Alavin If I wanted your view, I'd read your entrails Veteran

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    Just to clarify... If America owns all the domain names, does that mean that they have ultimate control over government websites? If that's right, then there's quite a big national security risk. And how would giving up the government domains of other countries be a security risk for America?

    And how is the internet American? They created the first one, but the internet itself is just computers connected together, and wasn't invented by any one person or group. The roads analogy is the best one I've seen; whoever built the first road doesn't control the worldwide road network.

    Sorry if this is all garbage, but it seems like a ridiculous situation. Who would be stupid enough to let another country have ultimate control over its websites?
     
  4. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    [​IMG] Felinoid, it's not exactly as you imagine it... the biggest problems here are the domains and who controls them. And domains are created (i.e. named) by the people who buy them, not the US. So it's not a matter of "being discovered". Only the domain suffixes are provided on a higher level.

    St. James, I've read it carefully, but considering how vaguely you worded it, it could actually mean either thing. But "They build transmission stations, power lines, etc. Other countries take advantage of this free power to grow their economies." certainly implies that the builder was being taken advantage of. The problem is that you state this in the main paragraph, but say something completely opposite in the next one. So it's all very vague what you wanted to say.

    Putting words in my mouth again... Please note the word INDEFINITELY that I used in my post (not to mention a bunch of other points convenienty overlooked). Of course everyone should have the right to exploit their creation for their own gain for a set period of time. But copyright on everything expires in a few years or decades, depending on the product.

    And we're talking copyright on a thing that someone actually invented as a complete product. As far as the Internet goes, the US can only take credit for providing the base. Many other countries have helped to make the Internet truly useful after that with their own developments and improvements. So in no way could the US put an all-encompassing claim on the Internet (this has been pointed out about a dozen times in this thread by now).

    What national security reasons? What on earth are you going on about? It's not like the US is the only country with laws. Heck, if anything, it violates international law more than anyone else. But that's another topic entirely. We're talking about the EU here. We have criminal laws here too, you know. And despite this, the EU has no way of looking out for its own "national security" concerning the Internet. How is that fair?

    To echo your questions: Why would anyone expect Europe to go along with this? How is that fair at all?

    Edit:

    Alavin, America doesn't own all domain names. It simply has the control to shut any one domain or a group of domains down if it so chooses. Or rather, make the domain unavailable for viewing to others.

    The only thing America could claim as its own is the part of the Internet in the countries belonging to the United States. And if they walled themselves in, what do you think you'd get? The Internet? Hell, no. You'd get another America Online. And of much use that would be to you or anyone else. People in the US couldn't benefit from being able access the rest of the world online either. But St. James tries to make it sound like no one in the US cares about that. Hah, I'd like to see the uproar of business America if they suddenly found themselves confined to the borders of the US Internet. Not to mention everyone else frequenting websites outside the US borders.

    [ October 06, 2005, 16:47: Message edited by: Taluntain ]
     
  5. Felinoid

    Felinoid Who did the what now? ★ SPS Account Holder

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    Of course we can; we own the world. ;) By copyright law, though, a product must be finished before it can be copyrighted. So if the rest of the world helped with the finishing process, then they have every right to shared control, and I've got no problem with this at all. But the US as a whole will have a significant problem with giving up such an advantage, so all I can say is good luck with it.
     
  6. Wordplay Gems: 29/31
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    Better share a ICANN today and save the trouble tomorrow. Better have more authorities in this matter just so that everything keeps moving. Even though it grits me to admit this, Taluntain has a good point in that flood of text...
     
  7. Darkwolf Gems: 18/31
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    I believe that currently ICANN is operating as an independent corporation. The problem I see is that allowing bureaucracies like the EU Gov't, US Gov't, and UN to all have a say in it could stifle the ability for the internet to advance technologically. Think about how difficult the roll out of IPv6 has been. If you put multiple bureaucracies over it major advances will become almost impossible IMO.
     
  8. Morgoroth

    Morgoroth Just because I happen to have tentacles, it doesn'

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    As far as I know it ain't acting as an independent corporations and even if it would it would be a monopoly and most countries have laws against monopolies. Personally I think Europe should do all they can to pull themselves free from the ICANN system, I don't think the US is going to give up nor have they any obligations to do so. EU can pretty much blame themselves for this situation if you ask me.
     
  9. Darkwolf Gems: 18/31
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    Great, another debate about monopolies. Didn't we do this a couple years ago?

    Some industries just do not lend themselves to competition or having the gov't run them. California tried to eliminate the power company’s monopolies, and it turned into a total cluster. The gov't took over airport security and the costs tripled while security actually was worse.

    Monopolies are fine as long as they are regulated, and mean regulated, not dominated. I won't enter the debate, but I think everyone here knows my opinion on the gov't trying to run industries.
     
  10. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    Darkwolf, ICANN is only somewhat independent. The proper wording would be that it was made to appear independent (exactly because of all the complaints of its bias...). Technically, the US government could still easily pull the strings if and when it needed to. And there's really no telling that it doesn't. Also, you can hardly expect a US-based business staffed with Americans to be "independent". Even if they do their best, the US government could take over everything at a moment's notice if there was an issue of "national security", or any similar blanket excuse which basically gives them power to override laws mere mortals have to respect. Especially considering the current political climate in the US, it'd be naive to expect that it doesn't happen.

    Not that there's anything to worry about here anyway... Until the US concedes, everything will keep going on as it has in the past. No one anywhere in the world is insane enough to attempt breaking off into their own local "Internet". The people would never stand for it. Not even countries like China have done that back when they still easily could (and frankly, it'd actually make some sense for them to do it, from the political perspective). But the fact that they didn't speaks volumes.
     
  11. Mithrantir Gems: 15/31
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    Well TCP/IP protocol was only invented by the MoD for the US purposes of secret and safe communication worldwide. This protocol was challenged by the ISO standard, and won. The www root is an invetion of CERN . IANA is responsible for global address allocation and registration (meaning ip networks 192.167.0.0/16). And ICANN is not the only one responsible for domain names in reality globally so why should they only hold the root DNS and have their control? I can't see the reason why.
    Unless of course you look for excuses in controlling the Internet, which is a :nono: intention, since it is supposed to be free. How can something be free and fair if it being controlled, or worse is being controlled by one nation only?
    P.S. The backbone existed in all countries but the technology of internet was unknown and costly. By the word backbone is defined the physical infrastructure (the active equipment routers, switches plus the connections between them) and in a network especially is the core of it, and the connections that outstretch from the core towards the access layer. (Core - distribution - access -> users)
     
  12. Darkwolf Gems: 18/31
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    Tal,

    You either missed or glossed over the main point of my post, that being: allowing multiple gov't bureaucracies to have control over ICANN would be a disaster in that the sheer bulk of the oversight would stifle any major innovation. The only reason I could see that anyone would want this would be if they didn't want the Internet to advance, and had no issue with it rapidly falling into obsolescence as it was replaced by a new network that would rise within the shell left from a gov't run internet.

    If you look at nations that had government run telecommunications systems, with only a couple of very small exceptions (those being in small nations) their systems were basically equivalent to the US POTS systems of the 1950s to 1970s. These nations either had to hire private firms to come in and modernize or turn over their networks to private industry in order to be able to carry dial up speed data traffic, never mind considering anything like a T-1 or T-3. As an example of current development that is being created in the private sector that would only be taken on by the gov't after it was needed (if ever) is the further development of the lasers that send signals down fiber optic cables. Last year a partnership between MCI and several other smaller corporations from various subsectors within the telecom industry rolled out OC-256 level circuits. That is 12,000Mbps! Or you could measure that by stating that it is 172K simultaneous telephone calls! I am sorry, but gov'ts only reacts to what people demand, does not do a good job forecasting what people will want in the future, and is inherently risk adverse in spending for innovation.

    I can see why other nations would not want something that has become as important as the Internet under the control of the US gov't, but adding additional bureaucracies to govern it, or transferring it to another body that is just as likely to be politically motivated is not the answer, IMO.
     
  13. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    Darkwolf, no, I saw your point, but as I've mentioned it as one of the benefits of centralized control previously, I didn't think I needed to do so again. ;)

    You're not getting any arguments from me that less bureaucracy is a good thing. But you argue that bureaucracy in this case would "stifle any major innovation". That's simply not the case. What bureaucracy would deal with would be standard procedures, like those with registering domains, which have been the same for years.

    There's no innovation being made at ICANN or any other government-controlled bodies. Innovations come from people who don't have bureaucracy hovering over the heads. That's been the case in the past and will be in the future. So I think your fears are unfounded. When it comes to control, we're talking control of basic procedures which rarely change, nothing else.

    As for your "government-run telecommunications systems" example, I'll have to take that as a generalization, I'm afraid. Your "small nations" exclusion is not really appropriate here - mostly every nation in Europe will be "small" compared to the US. Slovenia's had such a monopolyist system (and for a large part, still does), but we were among the first, if not the first, to offer UMTS in Europe, for example, and have always been on the cutting edge of all telecommunications technology... despite everything being run by a government monopoly.

    Giving the US as a good example considering, for example, how messed up your mobile telecommunications situation is (compared to Europe and many other countries) is really more than a little ironic. Though I guess you could put it down to average Europeans being much more demanding than Americans when it comes to latest telecommunication/mobile technologies... We've always wanted the best, fast, cheap and right away. And, for the most part, we also got it... Everyone here can afford a mobile phone (actually, the average is more than one per person) and a broadband Internet connection. The only question is if it's available where you're located, but the coverage is expanding on a weekly basis. And it's all come from the monopolist telco basically, since they're the ones building the infrastructure, even though some private companies also use them.

    Anyway, the point is to share control in such a way that it doesn't become too bogged down by bureucracy and that things still actually get done. Considering how long it's been taking for any changes to happen while everything is still under US control, I'm sure it's in everyone's interest to improve on that, not worsen the situation. Anything can be done if there's a will to do it.
     
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