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EU/UN want shared control of the Internet

Discussion in 'Alley of Dangerous Angles' started by St. James, Oct 3, 2005.

  1. St. James Gems: 4/31
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    After reading this article entitled "EU Wants Shared Control of Internet," my first reaction was "Why not? It is a global resource. Should it not be run by more than just one country?"

    Then I started thinking more about it. What right does the EU -- or the UN for that matter -- have to take control of anything away from a country? This is especially compelling when the country -- the U.S. in this instance -- invented the thing.

    I do not know enough about what control the U.S. has exactly, so I thought I would ask what members of this board think.

    Please note that I am not interested in questions about why it is fair for the U.S. to run the thing -- that topic would no doubt degenerate into stereotypical America-bashing. I am asking on what basis it is ok for the EU or UN or any other body to take control away.

    [ October 04, 2005, 16:21: Message edited by: Taluntain ]
     
  2. Morgoth

    Morgoth La lune ne garde aucune rancune Veteran

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    I never knew the US was in control of the Internet, how is a nation in control of an international network of computers?
     
  3. St. James Gems: 4/31
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    So far as I can tell it is because a private U.S. body (with veto power by the Department of Congress) has control over internet domains.
     
  4. chevalier

    chevalier Knight of Everfull Chalice ★ SPS Account Holder Veteran

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    The US didn't invent the internet but it probably has some privileged position, even judging by the mere fact that every country uses some domain suffix, while almost no sites whatsoever use the .us suffix. As for the domains, well, that's just domain names. It's not like someone can cut you off the net.
     
  5. Felinoid

    Felinoid Who did the what now? ★ SPS Account Holder

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    @chev:
    Didn't you hear? Al Gore invented the internet. :lol:

    IIRC, the precursor to the internet was a massive communication network set up by one branch of the US Armed Forces (I don't remember which one). It used IP (internet protocol) and was initially meant for secure communications. They continued to expand on it, but the secret eventually got out. Some people realized the potential profitability, and ... tada! Worldwide access to THE NET. That's how I heard it, anyway.
     
  6. Morgoroth

    Morgoroth Just because I happen to have tentacles, it doesn'

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    I fail to understand over what exactly US has veto right over? Personally I did not get what the fuss was about in the entire article. It's not like Europeans are dependant on the US for their usage of the internet. On the other hand my knowledge about how internet works in practice is quite near zero so it would not be surprising if I missed the point of the entire article. :p
     
  7. St. James Gems: 4/31
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    Yes, the Internet was originally a project of the Pentagon, which is how the U.S. gained control of Internet addressing in the first place.

    The article mentions that that power now has security and economic implications for other countries, who fear that the U.S. could indeed cut them off. There is also concern that about allowing the use of non-English characters in domain names. (Although why that would be a problem eludes me.)
     
  8. CĂșchulainn Gems: 28/31
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    Thats the thing that pisses me off, not recognising fadas on letters. Take the fada of my name, and the the pronounciation is wrong. Unfortunately I cannot use this for a website address.
     
  9. Aikanaro Gems: 31/31
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    Er - still, how does the US control the internet? Beyond domain names, that is, as that doesn't really mean much. As far as I can see, it's not like they can shut down a server in Europe or where ever, so they don't really control anything...
     
  10. St. James Gems: 4/31
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    Well, they use their space rays to control my brain sometimes when I am on the internets.
     
  11. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICANN

    Basically, the problem is that ICANN is still largely under US government control, and that they have exclusive rights for assigning TLDs and some other important tasks connected with Internet domains. So they are in a privileged position AND potentially under control of the US government... which is problematic, since they could potentially pull the plug on any domain they would want to shut down for some reason, or prevent accessibility of any domain or domains with a certain suffix (at least in the US).

    There are benefits to having a centralized body dealing with domains and DNS, but the downside is that there is no alternative and no one to complain to if ICANN under US government orders shuts down a domain. There's also the issue of base pricing on domain registrations and transfers which ICANN sets arbitrarily and despite overwhelming objection of everyone else - and no one can do anything about it.

    So the question is really only how long it's fair for the US to have monopoly over these services. Eventually they'll have to let go anyway.
     
  12. St. James Gems: 4/31
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    And what right would the EU or the UN have to take that control away?
     
  13. Sticker Gems: 9/31
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    Shouldn't the EU have control over "EU websites"?
     
  14. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    St. James, the right based on the fact that the Internet is now global, and that since all the other countries besides the US have to build their own backbones, pay for their own servers, etc. - which then the US users also use - it is logical that they should also have some say in the most important decisions and the issues of control. If the US was paying for everything and developing everything on its own, it wouldn't be an issue. But that's not the case.

    Also, no one is going to "take that control away". The control would logically be shared and decisions would be made democratically. So you don't have to worry about the UN or the EU taking control of everything. The point is to allow fair participation in the decision-making process.
     
  15. St. James Gems: 4/31
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    Hmmm. That does make some sense. However, I question whether "have to build their own backbones" etc is the right language, strictly speaking.

    If they want to have access to the internet, then they have to do those things. But they are not forced to do them. They could, in fact, start their own internet that does not have US authority over domains. But once they join to the regular internet it seems they agree to work with it the way it is.

    I admit to being something of an "America first" person, and I am certain that I would be voicing the arguments you all make if I were not American.

    But your arguments over basic fairness still do not seem sufficient. After all, basic fairness would dictate that everyone in the world vote in US elections because we have so much power over what goes on in the world. But we do not because of U.S. sovereignty. I think we can say ditto for the Internet.

    Oh, and do you really want UN control over anything so vital to the world economy?
     
  16. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    In practice, every country needs its own backbone if it wants to connect people to the Internet. Of course they are not forced to, but claiming they have a choice in the matter today is as silly as saying countries have a choice whether they'll build roads to connect them to other countries or not. There really is no choice here. You need them to get out, and others need them to get in. Even the worst kind of dictatorships have at least some roads connecting them to neighbouring countries.

    Internet is a term which encompasses the whole world. Any other smaller network is not it, and can't connect or interface with it without using the same protocols, which it wouldn't, by your logic. You also forget that other countries didn't start using the Internet by force... it was opened up for all to use by the US.

    Of course, thus far everyone has had to agree with the current state of control affairs. Or rather, even if they didn't, they had to accept it. But that isn't to say they can't argue about it now. Various countries of the EU have made huge contributions to the accessibility and development of the Internet and various protocols such as IRC over the years; and everyone is reaping the benefits of that, the people in the US included.

    And please, not the UN bogeyman argument again... UN wouldn't have total control over anything even remotely connected to the US. It never has, and it never will. Even if the US opened up in this regard, it'd still most likely have the most influence. So, rationally, there is nothing to be concerned about. Considering the number of people in the US who fear the UN worse than the devil, you can be sure that it'd never be allowed to have more influence than any other body in the process.
     
  17. St. James Gems: 4/31
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    Here is an analagous scenario to consider:

    Imagine a small country, say Israel, develops a way to generate completely free electricity. Instead of keeping it for themselves, they decide to share it with the rest of the world. They build transmission stations, power lines, etc. Other countries take advantage of this free power to grow their economies. (Assume for the moment that no other country is able to duplicate the free power generation technology and Israel can not give it away for some good reason.)

    Standards of living rise in countries that take advantage of the free power. They build transmission lines throughout their country and soon come to depend on it.

    Does Israel then have to give up control?

    It would not make much sense for Israel to cede control, would it? In fact, because Israel is hated by so much of the world, it could be downright dangerous to its own safety to give up control.

    The same is true with the U.S. and the Internet. We invented it. We let other countries join it. They made investment in infrastructure to take advantage of it. Sometimes it helped us when others joined the Internet -- especially economies that were developed enough for significant trade -- and sometimes it did not.

    Now it seems we have invented something that has benefitted the world, and instead of saying "thanks" and carrying on, the rest of the world wants us to give up what little control we have. And, like in the hypothetical case above, giving up control could be dangerous to our own security.
     
  18. Morgoroth

    Morgoroth Just because I happen to have tentacles, it doesn'

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    Even though I still don't fully understand what kind of control the US has over the internet (I tried to get into the wikipedia article but my knowledge in these things as I said is zero and so I did not understand that much of it) I don't think they are forced to share. However I don't see why EU has to put up with it, I mean it's not like we lack the knowledge to build up a similar system and it's not like we lack resources. I'm not sure why exactly EU is whining over the issue but instead of begging for a bone they should actually do something about it. But then as I have repeatedly said I have no idea how this would be practically done.

    I don't support any moral monopoly over the internet for the US. They can't hold it just because they invented it. If others want to build their own system totally separate from the US system then they should be free to do so, and frankly I don't see what the US could do to stop it either.
     
  19. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    [​IMG] St. James, you haven't been paying attention to what I wrote. I specifically pointed out that the US did not develop all the technology and the means to access it, and just let the world leech off of it. Every country had to build its own Internet access system, which was then linked to the existing ones. The US isn't doing or providing anything more (or less) for anyone than any other connected country. It's providing it for its own citizens, and that's it. All the other countries needed to build their own systems to connect to it. So your analogy is completely false. It's not like the US sent building crews and money and equipment to all the countries that wanted to connect to the Internet. It was more along the lines "it's there, it's open, so you can connect if you have the means to". And if anyone couldn't, that was their problem.

    My roads analogy is much better in getting the right picture across. And it can be taken further. Imagine the Internet as asphalt, and let's say that the US invented it. Every country had its own means of paving the roads before asphalt came along. But since asphalt was so much better, everyone soon adopted it and started using it. In a matter of a couple of decades, it was the only sensible remaining means of road pavement. But imagine also, that the US has kept the means of preparing asphalt a secret from everyone. Only the US knows how to make it, so in essence, it holds complete control over everyone who wants to use asphalt.

    What would the situation be like today if the inventor of asphalt was given exclusive rights to use it all over the world - indefinitely? First allowing everyone to use it to the point that everyone realizes they can't operate efficiently without it any more, then refusing to let anyone else make it on their own, requesting permission from the source for every stretch of paved road built anywhere on the planet...

    Of course, asphalt was way easier for others to figure out and copy it so that part of the analogy is a bit off, but if you take for granted that the kind of asphalt made in the US and the kind everyone else could make wouldn't be compatible and the roads between countries couldn't connect because of it, you get exactly the possibility of a situation we're facing now.

    Morgoroth, check this article. It's a bit too melodramatic and US-centered, but it sums up the issue and possible problems well enough and in simple terms.
     
  20. Erod Gems: 14/31
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    About all development at this stage was international (protocols etc.).

    As for the whole situation, I think it is only fair. The internet is after all a publicly accessible worldwide system. They could at least move some of the core DNS servers.
     
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