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'Shoot first law' in Florida

Discussion in 'Alley of Dangerous Angles' started by Cúchulainn, Sep 30, 2005.

  1. Morgoroth

    Morgoroth Just because I happen to have tentacles, it doesn'

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    I think some Finn mentioned in another thread allready that it's easy to get a gun in Finland and that's true. I'm not sure however how the correct procedures exactly go and I'm not sure how difficult it's compared to the US. Never the less a bigger percentage of Finns owns a gun than Americans (I remember reading this from quite a few places but it's some time ago so I can't name a source, they'd be in Finnish anyway). Crimes involving shooting are still quite rare though.
     
  2. Arabwel

    Arabwel Screaming towards Apotheosis Veteran

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    And most crimes involving shootings in Finland are not deliberate in the sense of mugger/robber/et ceera having a gun; it's usually someone getting drunk, getting pissed off, and going after his best bud with a shotgun. (can't really offer statistics forr that, though)
     
  3. St. James Gems: 4/31
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    You say that like shotgunning a dear friend while pissed is a bad thing.
     
  4. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    You really have an utopian view of the criminal society... they'll just stop breaking into homes because of the possibility they'll be killed in the process of committing a crime? Yea, right. That possibility has always been there. Such a law would only make sure that every criminal would come armed with a better weapon than the home owner, and would be more desperate and likely to shoot first. That's the simple logic.

    Actually, I was talking about the ease of obtaining weapons such as handguns, machine guns, all sorts of attack rifles, etc. Weapons that have no other function but to kill other people.

    Hunting rifles are obviously something else entirely, and there are plenty of them in Europe. But a rifle is not a convenient weapon to lug around if you intend to use it to harm someone or use it in criminal situations on a regular basis, for obvious reasons. You just can't hide a rifle on your person or in a bag like you can a handgun or an UZI. Someone will notice you carrying a rifle around and report it. You can't comfortably run away carrying a rifle - again for obvious reasons. And you can't quickly reload it and have a whole magazine full of rounds in either. Ultimately, even hiding it or getting rid of it would be a problem simply because of the size.
     
  5. Cúchulainn Gems: 28/31
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    In Ireland guns are common, as most of us are farmers and/or live in the countryside. Hand guns and automatic weapons are not permitted. I would even go as far as to say that a higher percentage of Irish would be armed than Americans.

    Guns are not needed in urban areas for the general public (wild boars do not generally roam the cities). Thats why Ireland does not have high gun crime, such as drive-by-shootings and armed robbery is very rare.

    I think we are not running around shooting each other as we still have high regard for family values, though not as much as, say 10 years ago.
     
  6. St. James Gems: 4/31
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    And you seem completely clueless about the use of force.

    What difference does it make if a criminal has a better weapon? If he has a .357 magnum, does it mean that he can magically disappear when the homeowner shoots a 9 mm at him?

    No. Even a stupid criminal -- and they do not tend to be rocket scientists -- knows to avoid a shootout.

    If you look at crime statistics in the U.S. at least, you will see that criminals are less likely to try to steal in areas in which legal gun ownership is high.

    There is no meaningful distinction between "hunting rifle" and "Weapons that have no other function but to kill other people" unless you're talking about handguns or full auto guns.
     
  7. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    Your points will come across better if you provide something to back up your claims, rather than insults, and focus on the entire point of people's posts, not just a segment that suits your purposes.

    Please provide a link to the statistics you're talking about.

    And yes, if you had read my post carefully, you would notice that handguns and "full auto guns" and such are exactly what I'm talking about.
     
  8. St. James Gems: 4/31
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    I tend to respond to insults with insults -- e.g., condescending "you really have a utopian view of the criminal society" -- and I believe I cited as many statistics as you have. Use Google if you really want them -- I do not have time to educate you.

    That rather looks like you are talking about something in addition to handguns and machine guns, doesn't it?
     
  9. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    [​IMG] You also really have a skewed perception of what an insult is. Calm down, take a deep breath, go read the AoDA rules sticky, and try again. Your baseless arrogance is verging on rule-breaking, and the next time I'll discuss it with you will be in a PM as an offical warning of rule breaking.

    As for specific statistics, I don't base my points on them, whereas you do. So if you expect your counter-argument to carry any weight, provide a link to back up your claims, or don't bother replying. Certainly not with the kind of rude and arrogant style you've done in your previous post.

    As for what I'm talking about - firearms. All shapes, kinds and sizes. It hardly makes any difference considering the only necessary distinction thus far has been between a hunting rifle and everything else.
     
  10. Late-Night Thinker Gems: 17/31
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    This is a prime example of why statistics can be so misleading...

    The reason is that legal gun ownership is much higher in rural America (i.e. the "Red States"). There are a lot less burglaries in rural America. Burglaries are much more common where people congegrate; congregation of people leads to less animals like deer and skunks, so there are less guns.
     
  11. St. James Gems: 4/31
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    Actually, you can look at simple handgun ownership and reach the same conclusion, Late Night Thinker.

    Taluntain, [snip]

    [If you have anything further to say to me as a moderator, please consult the regular forum rules you've agreed to follow upon registration on how to do it. -Tal]

    [ October 05, 2005, 15:17: Message edited by: Taluntain ]
     
  12. Carcaroth

    Carcaroth I call on the priests, saints and dancin' girls ★ SPS Account Holder

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    I'm in England,
    It's extremely difficult to get hold of any form of gun, about the only ones allowed are shotguns (max 12 bore I believe), you need to prove you need it which mostly limits the availability to farmers
    (self defense is not good enough) and you need to show you have a secure enough store where it will be kept at all times if not in your possession. I guess there will be a limited number of hunting rifles, but again you'll need a license which will require proof of where you will use it. Auto/Semi auto and handguns are banned & I wouldn't know how to get hold of one.

    Crime statistics for the whole of the UK detail just over 3% domestic burglary for 2003/2004, though this includes break-ins where nothing was stolen (about half of this 3%). About 11% of the total included violence/threatening behaviour.

    http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk
     
  13. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    [​IMG] I've just done a little digging, and I came up with an interesting figure. 12. That's the number of people in Slovenia who have been murdered with a firearm in 2004. And even of these 12, most (if not all) have been murdered by southerners or criminals coming to Slovenia with guns smuggled from one of the former Yugoslavian republics.

    Admittedly, we only have a 2-million population, but it just goes to show the difference strict gun ownership laws can make. Please keep in mind that Slovenia is heavily forested and that there are dozens of thousands of hunters with rifles around. To my knowledge, none of the murders have been committed using a hunting rifle.
     
  14. St. James Gems: 4/31
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    I also notice that there is a higher proportion of rape and burglary in Slovenia than in the U.S.

    I think that is relevant to the discussion. (From site nationmaster.com.)
     
  15. Carcaroth

    Carcaroth I call on the priests, saints and dancin' girls ★ SPS Account Holder

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    What is the % chance of being burgled in the US? I couldn't find figures.

    Is there a breakdown of how many of these turn violent (either to burglar or owner)

    Edit, tried the Nationmaster site, interesting.

    Well it gives different figures to the UK's own statistics so I'm not entirely sure how it works, but it claims a 1.38% chance of being burgled in the UK, compared to 0.71% in the US. Murdered by Firearm is 0.000% in the UK, and 0.002% in the US.
    Murdered full stop is 0.004% (US) 0.001% (UK). Rapes is 0.03% (US) vs 0.014% (UK).

    OK, it's difficult to really compare two countries, but I would think the UK is as close a match to the US demographic you will get and still have the gun law differences to be able to make a comparison. Certainly more comparable than Slovenia (no offense intended Tal)

    [ October 05, 2005, 17:32: Message edited by: Carcaroth ]
     
  16. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    http://www.nationmaster.com/country/si/Crime
    and
    http://www.nationmaster.com/country/us/Crime

    The data compared is woefully out of date (5-6 years old), but still... generally, with the exceptions that St. James noted, Slovenia seems to fare much better than the US when it comes to violent crime and the percentage of prisoners.

    But there are some strange discrepancies... The rape victims number on the list is higher for Slovenia than the US, but at the per capita listing, it's 0.04 per 1000 people for Slovenia and 0.30 per 1000 people for the US... which puts the US way ahead with the rape likelyhood. Going by those figures, it's about 7x more likely for a woman to be raped in the US than in Slovenia.

    The burglaries percentage isn't that much higher in Slovenia... about 0.80% more than in the US.
     
  17. Carcaroth

    Carcaroth I call on the priests, saints and dancin' girls ★ SPS Account Holder

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    Figures must have changed, it now shows 86 rapes for Slovenia in 2000, compared to 89,100 for the US for 1999, %'s as Tal shows.

    so:

    Guns may have an impact on the chance of being burgled (This doesn't tally with countries such as Spain who have a much smaller likihood) but you are more likely to be murdered or raped?

    Statistics are great, but woefully meaningless.
     
  18. The Great Snook Gems: 31/31
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    This just in from the BBC ; Gun crime (where guns are forbidden) is up 6%

    My favorite part was when the blamed the increase on violent crime on better reporting and record keeping.
     
  19. Arahar

    Arahar Hmm, it's a dwarf. Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder

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    Sorry to skip back to almost the beginning of this topic but I'd like to know if anybody has some recent(2003-2004) information on fully automatic weapons. I know that when I got my Mac-10(full auto .45 submachine gun) I had to fill out about 30 forms and send the US government $200 and promise not to take it across state lines without asking first. I just wanted to know if this is still the deal or not.

    In case anybody was wondering I'm not a gun toting idiot. I'm actually a collector of firearms.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 15, 2012
  20. St. James Gems: 4/31
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    You have to get a class III license and pass a background check -- and yes, pay a bunch of money -- but IIRC that is still how the process works. Actually, if you did that recently your license might enable you to purchase another class III device w/o going through the whole process against. I'm not sure.

    Of course, those outside the Anglosphere's tradition of individual rights will recoil in horror that anyone outside of the military could possibly be trusted with such a weapon, but I think I can live with that.
     
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