Microsoft and the Swastika

Remove all ads!

http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_866344.html

This annoys me, not because (assuming I had MS Word or whatever it is) I can't go putting swastikas on everything, but more because I don't have the option to - and yet I have the option still of putting the Star of David over everything which is probably just as offencive to a number of people. Either remove all, or remove none. Preferably none.

 

Good point. Who's to decide what is and is not offensive?

But then again, Microsoft are a business and can do what they want. I assume they do whatever they think is best for their profits.

 

Speaking as a non-Jew, if the Star of David is equally offensive to someone as the swastika - **** that person.

Microsoft is a private company making a product. It isn't Microsoft's job to give you or anyone else the easy ability to print a symbol of hate.

If you want to do that, just use another product - there are plenty available.

 

Maybe not "equally" offensive - but where would you draw the line?

 

While I will readily concede that the Nazis should be reviled I find the negative meaning that people put on the swastika to be silly.

The swastika is an ancient symbol that had been used for centuries before it was adopted by the Nazis. You will find it in the older carvings/murals/tile work of countless churches around the world. Everytime I see a plaque erected in a church trying to defend the swastikas in their older artwork I roll my eyes at the ignorance of people who automatically associate swastikas with the Nazis.

Tell me, if the Nazi's had used a triangle as their symbol would we be banning all triangles?

Sure I would argue that anyone commiting hate crimes should be punished but to ban a symbol because one group of objectionable people used it at one point in time is just silly.

 

I'm with you, J. The swastika, or crux gammata, has been around since time immemorial and has been adopted by cultures all around the globe. It figures prominently in Navajo lore, was a symbol representing Thor's hammer, and in Tibet represented the footsteps of the Buddha, to name a few.

That said, I wouldn't have expected Microsoft to do anything less. Profit motive and all that.

 

See, the symbol isn't banned. A private company has chosen not to include it in a rather unimportant application. No more, no less.

If a gov't was banning the symbol that would be different. But there is no gov't action. It's a private company. The change has little effect

With regards to what the swastika means, it is unfortunate that the Nazis corrupted a 3000 plus year old symbol. But they did.

It is clear though that in the West (and Microsoft is a Western company) the swastika has one dominant meaning. This might be unfortunate as well, but it is the way things are. And when it is used to mean otherwise in the west now, it is commonly carefully used in such a way that it is not clockwise. Why? Because those who wish to use the swastika in a positive manner in the west still understand the dominant meaning of the swastika in the west.

If we were having this conversation in India maybe things would be different. But we're not.

And, most importantly, Microsoft is a western company and what they've done isn't a particularly big deal. If you want to print the swastika you still can. This isn't a ban.

Much ado about nothing.

 

The problem is that the company didn't choose not to include the swastika (it was included in the original version) but that it was forced to remove it because some groups pressed towards this direction.

 

So? A private company is doing something in its own self interest. What is surprising or awful about that? They aren't dumping toxins in a river.

Much ado about nothing.

 

I belong to a minority group that is horribly
offended by all straight, short lines.

After our upcoming protest march upon the Microsoft headquarters I predict that the entire computer character map will be rendered desolate.

Just try communicating with only arcs, curves and circles

I agree with Laches...this is much ado about nothing...if you want the freedom to use swastika's in your writings, I'm sure there are plenty of 3rd party sites that offer custom font sets and clip art. Microsoft does not have a duty to provide them to you.

 

Of course it was in Microsoft's best interest to remove the symbol, that isn't the point. The point isn't that a company has changed the software to exclude the swastika, the point is that people/society feel that it was necessary to do so and feel that the company was negligent to have allowed the symbol to be published in the first place.

A ban does not have to be something mandated by the government. If any other company had included the swastika the reaction from the groups listed would have been the same, thus we are left with the idea that the swastika should never be made available for use.

I will readily concede that most people associate the swastika with the Nazis but that does not mean that they SHOULD do so. The symbol's meaning is only "corrupted" as long as people allow themselves to feel that the Nazi's use of the symbol supercedes that of everyone else who has used it. Mass ignorance does not make something correct.

 

Just a couple of comments on the stygma of the swastika.

That's true - but the Nazis were what made it famous, infamous rather, and that can't ignored. It serves as a reminder of the Nazis and is widely recognised as such. OJ Simpson was once a great football player, but we all remember as something else, now don't we. Point is, if you show 100 people a swastika and ask them what it means, 98 of them will say Nazis or Hitler, etc., one guy will say a Navajo symbol and one guy will say that goofy character in MS Word I never use. It's not the swastika's fault - it's just a fact.

Probably not - but the triangle is nowhere as distinct and unique a symbol as the swastika. The triangle is a much more common, simplistic, and versatile symbol. I can't recall ever learning about the equalateral swastika in my geometry classes. If the nazi flag were red, with a white circle and a black triangle in the middle, then yes - you have the color and design to differenciate it from a normal basic shape. But the swastika is distinct enough on its own to be universally recognizable; which, in marketing terms, is the brilliance of it (no, I didn't just compliment the Nazis). On top of that, thanks to Hitler, it is now universally recognized to convey a very specific message.

1000 years ago, even 200 years ago - sure, enough time has passed to make it silly. But only 70 years ago? No, it's still fresh enough on people's minds to be universally associated with the Nazis. Especially since it's still used today by the remnants of the movement.

All that said, I think getting rid of the Swastika in the program is an extremely small issue, to me anyway. I never used it, so it doesn't bother me. If it was something that bothered enough people, I say get rid of it unless there's a valid reason for keeping it in. The neo-nazis can just use an older version of Word and be happy.

 

I was on site the other week over at a school fitting some security grills and in one classroom, there was children’s picture’s of swastikas all over the place, bearing in mind it is a catholic primary school in England, have to laugh

 

While many people have said what the swastika has represented over the millenia, does anyone know the first use of it as a symbol for something, and who/where it was used?

On topic, I couldn't care less that Microsoft took it off its programs, because I cannot envision a reason why I would want to include it anything I type anyway. I mean, does anyone really have a need for that symbol? Or half of the symbols Microsoft includes? I can't really see my needing an Egyption ankh (sp?) either, but its there. The point is whether its there or not, since I'm not going to ever need it or use it, why should I care?

 

See, here is where we've had a disconnect then. Because I thought the point of the thread had to do with Microsoft removing the swastika from one of its programs. We're talking past each other. The first post made it look that way to me though.

That said, I agree with DR that it is not surprising that people, particularly in the West, associate the Nazis with the swastika.

A few short decades ago millions of people had close relatives butchered in one of the most important events in modern human history. The butchery took place under the symbol of the swastika. Under the circumstances, I'm not sure that it is surprising or even particularly wrong for people to associate that recent butchery that has been burned into the public consciousness with the symbol under which it was carried out rather than associate that symbol as a relatively obscure relgious symbol from millenia ago.

Your mileage may vary.

Edit - for Aldeth, I believe the swastika originated with sanskrit. Different cultures used it in different ways. In some cultures it could not only mean, good, sun, etc. but it could mean misfortune, bad, etc. depending on the way the arms pointed.

 

@Laches

I think that JSBB has made my point clear.

@Death Rabbit

Do you believe that Microsoft has included swastika because it was targeting at the neonazi market? I don't doubt that these bastards will use it as well but IMO the people, who are going to use it, are researchers, historians, students, almost everybody who's writing a book or an essay about WW2 or religious symbols and if you think how many people belong to this category, I think that these are the customers that Microsoft tried to satisfy with the inclusion of swastika.

 

@ BOC

The NeoNazis are a rising demographic in the word processor market! With technology's readiness and availability in today's world, and the impressive rate at which hate groups are modernizing (out with white sheets, in with spreadsheets!), it's just plain good business to provide products and services to meet their needs. Times, they are a changin'! Gone are the days when you were forced to leave little spaces in all your newsletters to draw in the swastika's by hand! I mean how unprofessional is that! Now that I think about it, I bet there are a lot of jews at Microsoft. They just did this to piss them off! Stupid jews.

Really, BOC. Think about these things before you say them. Sheesh.

ps: Dude...you couldn't tell that was a joke?

 

It is rather humilating for the human race to see people actually protesting to microsoft about this. "If you don't get rid of it, we won't buy your product" is the thing I bet was on all of the protestors letters. Microsoft thinks "Damn! Idiots are our primary customer!"

Frankly I think it SHOULD be in there. Not so I can type our most holy symbol small in our neo-nazi Auckland, New Zealand chapter newsletters (I use clip-art for that, a swastika needs the glorious red square outline and white circle interior ) but because it IS an important symbol BECAUSE of what the Nazis did.

These minority groups are probably the groups who ban their children from using the internet, watching TV and viewing billbords (blindfolds in public) because they contain material deemed inappropriate by their high-hors'd moral views. Actually these people probably don't even own a computer simply because it _could_ contain pornography. So I don't see why Microsoft submitted to their demands... oh well.

 

@Aldeth. The word swastika is from Sanskrit and was an ancient Aryan (Indian) symbol of eternity. It was reversed however. That is how the Nazi party got the Aryan connection. It is still quite commonly seen in Hindu and Buddhist religious art and architecture. It is a symbol used in Korea and parts of China to indicate that a resaurant is run my faithful Buddhists and the food served is genuinely vegetarian. The same may be the case in India but I doubt it. It is visible in Hindu temples (mandir) but I doubt it has the same significance in both faiths. It was also used as an ancient Chinese character for eternity, at least that was the theory I had explained to me.

 

And you don't think that the Jews haven't done things which offend people? Maybe hardcore Christians are offended by it, or Muslims. You're probably flaming a large number of people there.

And yes, I understand that it is Microsoft's decision - but I don't necessarilly have to agree with it. And I know that it is possible to download other fonts - but that has nothing to do with the issue.

[ Aikanaro, for future reference, do NOT make a sweeping generalization about an entire group of people. i.e. "the Jews" ] - Beren

[ February 20, 2004, 20:46: Message edited by: Beren ]