Feat Selection for 2 Tanks?

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I could really use some help planning out the feat selection of my 2 tanks! I'm not sure whether I want to go with Maximize Attacks or not, so I'm goona write up what the leveling/feat structure would look like both ways. If I'm missing a useful feat, or I'm including a feat that isn't worthy in your eyes, please let me know! All comments are welcome! (Remember that the Aasimar only gets feats up to lvl12 because at the end of the game, given ECL -1, he will likely finish at lvl14)

Aasimar Fighter 4/Paladin X
It has been suggested that I take 2 lvls of Paladin first, before taking any in Fighter, mostly for Aura of Courage, so the builds will reflect that.
First the basic build without Maximize Attacks

• Paladin 1: Power Attack
  Paladin 2/Fighter 1: Cleave, Great Swords 2
  Paladin 2/Fighter 2: Luck of Heroes
  Paladin 2/Fighter 4: Heretic’s Bane, Great Swords 3
  Paladin 5/Fighter 4: Improved Critical
  Paladin 8/Fighter 4: Fiendslayer

I was also thinking about perhaps taking Heroic Inspiration or Extra Smiting instead of Heretic's Bane.
Note: I may select Large Swords for Holy Avenger instead of Great Swords.

Now the Maximize Attacks build

• Paladin 1: Power Attack
  Paladin 2/Fighter 1: Cleave, Great Swords 2
  Paladin 2/Fighter 2: Luck of Heroes
  Paladin 2/Fighter 4: Great Swords 3, Large Swords 2
  Paladin 5/Fighter 4: Large Swords 3
  Paladin 8/Fighter 4: Maximize Attacks

Shield Dwarf Fighter 4/Barbarian X
Unless you know of an advantage to taking a level of Barbarian before Fighter, we'll start with Fighter.
Again first the Non-MA build.

• Fighter 1: Power Attack, Axes 2
  Barbarian 2/Fighter 1: Cleave
  Barbarian 2/Fighter 2: Dodge
  Barbarian 2/Fighter 4: Axes 3, Hammers 2
  Barbarian 5/Fighter 4: Dirty Fighting
  Barbarian 8/Fighter 4: Improved Critical
  Barbarian 11/Fighter 4: Extra Rage

Now the MA build.

• Fighter 1: Power Attack, Axes 2
  Barbarian 2/Fighter 1: Cleave
  Barbarian 2/Fighter 2: Hammers 2
  Barbarian 2/Fighter 4: Axes 3, Hammers 3
  Barbarian 5/Fighter 4: Improved Critical
  Barbarian 8/Fighter 4: Maximize Attacks
  Barbarian 11/Fighter 4: Extra Rage

 

Just wondering why you'd leave the Extra Rage feat so late in the Barbarian Max Attack's development. Especially since you only get additional Rages every four levels, and given that Raging is one of a Barbarian's main benefits, I'd think that you'd want to take at least the first of the three Extra Rage feats well before level 11.

I also wonder why you'd take feats like Cleave and Luck of Heroes before feats like Deflect Arrows and Improved Initiative, not to mention Dash.

I've found Heroic Inspiration to be pretty cool, but I didn't take Extra Smiting, and am glad I didn't, since Smiting doesn't seem to work so well that having more of it would make me happy. Never tried Heretic's Bane.

Anyway, I'm just curious.

 

The whole reason I made this post, is because I'm unsure of my plan, and I am asking you guys ever so humbly, for advice . Being "curious", and "wondering", is irrelevant, because I have never played this game before, and I don't know what the hell I'm doing, so it's your job to enlighten me, not question me

With Oriseus I have decided to stick with the Non-MA build.

With Keben however, I can see where Deflect Arrows would be good for snipers and spell casters who are having trouble surviving enemy fire, but for a Barbarian? I dunno, you tell me. As for Dash, well, this character innately moves faster, and he is no scout.

 

Well, from your post, there was no way to know that 1) you hadn't played before; 2) how heavily you want to be 'spoiled'.

Plus, I was trying to be polite and not sound like your choices were 'bad' or 'silly' (which they aren't but it's easy to phrase things so that they're taken the wrong way).

Anyway, one benefit of dualling a fighter with a barbarian is to enable the barbarian to wear heavy armor. If you do that, iirc, the barbarian's movement bonus is negated by the heavy armor-- therefore, Dash (and Improved Initiative). Getting next to an enemy fast enough to disrupt its spells, or hit it first and distract it from the low HP spellcaster it was targeting is always good. It's also good for blocking, since as the fighter/barb moves faster, s/he can get in front of the enemy who's moving to engage that low-HP character in melee combat and physically prevent it.

Ummmm... which one is which? They didn't have names in your first post.

As for Deflect Arrows, yeah, I guess you could skip it for a tank if you wanted, as it's only a +1 deflection bonus. However, often you do face a large number of archers, with enchanted arrows, who are shooting at the main attacker as well as any spellcasters-- assuming that you even bring your spellcasters into the area of battle, which you don't have to, if you plan to use your tanks as a decoy and have the enemy swarm them.

IMO, every little bit helps, but then again, I haven't really got Cleave to work (nor Hamstring, nor Stunning Blow). Since the Power Attack feats aren't working for me anyway, I tend to leave such feats for later and use the "littler" feats like Deflect Arrows early, when they're most helpful to me. IMO, a tank doesn't really need to "Cleave" goblins (Prologue) or even Orcs (Chapter 1), but might need to Cleave Neo-Orogs or trolls (Chapter 2) and definitely might need to Cleave Hook Horrors (Chapter 3). So I'd say that Cleave could wait.

Don't forget, at the start of the game you aren't going to have many HP, and you aren't going to be able to afford anything much but light armor. So even though an arrow is only going to do 1-3 damage, two archers shooting at the tank while the tank is in melee with an strongish enemy that gets a good hit or two can still kill him/her in the blink of an eye-- especially if an enemy spell caster has managed to Hold or Charm him/her. This often means that you have to leave the archers alone for a bit, while your ranged fighters (if you have ranged fighters) focus on the enemy spellcaster(s), to prevent this sort of thing. Deflect Arrows makes this a more comfortable choice.

It's hard to say what would be best for you, though, without knowing who's in the rest of your party, since strategy is an integrated whole in this game. What feats you need/work best for you depend on how you plan for your party as a whole to meet threats. Are the tanks the sole line of defense for four low-HP spellcasters, or is there a cleric who stays out of the front line to protect the wizard and bard? Is there a Rogue with great Hide skills sneaking around behind the enemy spellcasters to sneak attack them, or are you going to rely on bows and crossbows and ranged spells to prevent shamans and wizards casting at your party?

The point is not to get the best combination of the best feats, but to get the best combination of feats for your party, which is individual to your party, and depends on your basic strategy.

 

Well, you have helped me on my other party threads, and regretably I assumed that you knew or recalled from them that this will be my first time through. Spoilers -- feel free to say anything that doesn't give away major parts of the storyline/plot.

Oriseus Zora is the Paladin, while Keben is the Barbarian.

Here is the rest of my party as it stands to be created now:

Thazar-De
Tiefling Ranger 5/Rogue X
STR 14 DEX 20 CON 14 INT 14 WIS 10 CHA 6
Skills: Disable Device, Disarm Trap, Open Lock, Search
Feats: Dash, Rapid Shot, Luck of Heroes, Weapon Finesse, Small Blades 2, Dodge, Improved Critical (sequence help here please)

Aeron Zora
Human Morninglord
STR 14 DEX 10 CON 16 INT 8 WIS 18 CHA 10
Skills: Concentration, Spellcraft
Feats: Combat Casting, Maces 2, Discipline, Sub-Vocal Casting

Meleghost Gedreghost
Human Wizard
STR 10 DEX 14 CON 14 INT 18 WIS 10 CHA 10
Skills: Spellcraft, Alchemy, Knoledge, Concentration
Feats: Spell Focus (Enchantment) 2, Combat Casting, Expertise

Sandrue Stamaraster
Human Sorcerer
STR 10 DEX 12 CON 14 INT 14 WIS 8 CHA 18
Skills: Spellcraft, Diplomacy, Alchemy, Knowledge (Arcane), Concentration
Feats: Spell Focus (Evocation) 3, Combat Casting, Spirit of Flame, Courteous Magocracy, Expertise

Note: I was also thinking of the possibilty of changing Thazar-De and Meleghost around a bit: Thazar-De is split between Archery and Sneak Attack-flanking-melee support for the tanks. I've been told Wizard scrolls usually come by late in the game respective to the level of the Wizard. So the Wizard will often be too far ahead in levels for the scrolls to keep up with. In accordance with this, I could change both builds to these:

Thazar-De
Ranger 1/Rogue X
Focus on Sneak Attack melee support related feats

Meleghost
Moon Elf Fighter 4/Wizard X
STR 10 DEX 20 CON 14 INT 18 WIS 8 CHA 6
Skills: Concentration, Spellcraft, Alchemy, Knowledge: Arcana
Feats: Rapid Shot, Weapon Specialization: Bows, Spell Focus: Enchantment, elemental feats, Dodge

 

Oh, that's you! Yep, as soon as you said "Sandrue Starmaster", I recognized you (cool name). Sorry about that.

But anyway:

OK, I'm not the best person to verify this, since I have only a 4 person party, so my Wizard/Ranger levels faster than she would in a full-size party.

However, I am at the end of Chapter 3, and in my experience, even if this is a problem, there is no way to solve it by changing the character around.

The thing is, scrolls are either found or bought, right? And after about level 2 spells, you won't both find a particular spell and also have it available to buy, in my experience so far. I have yet to see a Fireball scroll available for sale, for example, from any of the five merchants I have encountered after finding one. I also noticed with Level 5 spells that I found about half of them, while the other half was available for sale. I can't use Level 6 spells yet, but I have two, and I think one is found and one is bought.

So the thing is, no matter how you acquire a spell scroll, it's either going to be above you or below you. If it's above you, just buy/scribe it and then you don't have a problem when you get to a level that you can cast it. Don't worry about the cost if buying from a merchant-- you're going to level up in the middle of a dungeon anyway, and you are most likely not going to be able to run back and buy the spell then. Get 'em when you see 'em.

If, on the other hand, scrolls are not "keeping up" with you, you'd have to change your strategies anyway to compensate, so I don't see it making much of a functional difference whether you compensate by going with some Ranger levels (since Rangers don't get a wide selection of spells, and get them slower/later than a pure Wizard, plus the Ranger spells are often Divine-type, not Arcane), or compensate by adjusting how your pure Wizard uses the lower-level spells that are available.

I mean, OK, a Ranger with Flame Strike might make up for your Wizard not having found the Fireball scroll yet, but since Flame Strike is a Level 4 Ranger spell (meaning that the ranger must be some ridiculously hight level to cast it, as rangers don't even get spells till level 4), there's little point in expecting a Ranger to "fill in" for first-rank Wizard spells.

But since you don't have a Druid, I would say stick with Thazar-De as Ranger 5/Rogue X, though I would say either stop at level 4 Ranger or make it a real Dual and go on to the next Ranger "stop point" which is probably level 6 or 9, I don't know.

As for sequence of feats, I would say Weapons Finesse and Short Swords 2 as early as possible (since you intend to be sneaking him around to flank or sneak attack in support of the two tanks), then Rapid Shot and Dash (Rapid Shot is pretty essential for an archer-- Precise Shot is also good, but not as crucial), then Dodge and Improved Critical, then anything else.

4 levels of Fighter for the Wizard sounds like a very good idea, and I would switch Meleghost to that. However, you might want to consider making the Spell Focus Evocation rather than Enchantment, unless you're planning to throw a lot of Dire Charms or Hold Persons.

Things like Fireball, Icelance, Chromatic Orb, and Magic Missile are the Evocation school.

But back to your original question.

It seems pretty clear that you won't be using much of a "divide and conquer" strategy with this party-- pretty much everyone is going to be meleeing with somebody, except possibly the two spellcasters, and most likely only one of them (the Sorceror).

In that case, I would say, your tanks should take the Weapons Focus/Specializations feats asap, to get the benefits to hit with those weapons. Then go for Improved Critical and Dodge (or Maximize Attack), to make those hits harder and more accurate. Then worry about the special attacks like Cleave, and Fiendslayer.

The idea is:

1. Give yourself the ability to kill enemies as fast as possible by hitting them so hard that they die almost immediately.

2. When enemies become stronger and it takes more than one hit to kill them, give yourself some protection bonuses (like Dodge, or Deflect Arrows-- you may be standing in the same place for some time, with archers pelting you-- or a Saving throw bonus feat, if wizards or shamans hit you a lot), or give yourself the ability to hit even harder (Maximize Attacks, Improved Initiative, or Improved Critical).

3. When enemies begin to need special techniques (you start seeing extraplanar creatures and creatures with innate abilities or resistances), then begin to add the "special" feats needed to defeat them, like Power Attack and Fiendslayer, etc.

Does that make sense? Hope it helps. Now stop worrying about this and go play !

[ November 13, 2003, 17:41: Message edited by: motub ]

 

Ok, I'm not sure if we're on the same page here or not, but my idea wasn't to "solve" it by adding the 4 levels of Fighter, my idea was to compensate by putting him behind because what I hear is that otherwise he'll never get spells close to commensurate with his level of power or the difficulty of the enemies he's facing. In accordance I've read that they are almost always left with empty spell slots.

I don't follow you, why would you choose Ranger as the class to MC with a Wizard, let alone over the 4 levels of Fighter?

Ok, in what way does the 5-9 levels of Ranger make up for not having a Druid? And what about a Druid would I need in the first place? I mean, don't get me wrong, I like Druids, I'm just curious why your going there for this party is all. I “could” take a Druid into this party instead of my Wizard. I could go with a Monk 1-3/Druid X or a Barbarian 1/Druid X or something.

The main point of my Wizard was to be a Summoner/Back-up Bombardier (although the Morninglord is already a back-up Bombardier). I figured that my Sorcerer wouldn’t be a wise choice for a Summoner because a wizard can use (for example) Summon Monster III quite effectively during Chapter 2(so I hear anyway), and then discard it for a superior summoning spell later on, whereas a sorcerer is stuck with that spell forever, even when the monsters conjured by that spell have become vastly outclassed and barely serve as a speed bump.

Now, if I was to take the Fighter 4/Wizard X, he would be my Archer, and the Ranger 1/Rogue X would not be an Archer, and he would focus on melee/Sneak Attack facilitating feats.

I just figured that since the Sorcerer is taking Evocation, the Wizard could cover something else, but I stand corrected.

Actually I’m planning on playing with many different strategies, “divide and conquer” included. That’s the thing, I don’t much like sticking with one strategy for too long, I like to have a balanced party that can be very versatile and all encompassing, while at the same time remaining as potent and effective at each respective strategy or task as possible. That’s the main reason why I haven’t “stopped worrying about it and go play” Its ever my dilemma.

 

There are some feats in D&D you only can get at Character creation. Luck of Heroes is one of them but I don't know if this counts for IWD, too.

I just thought I might tell you so you would not be disappointed if you find out you can't get it at level 2+.
(Oh, I'm so kind! )

 

Well, that surely won't happen if you delay his development with four levels of fighter; instead you'll have spells that you are of an insufficient level to cast. That is better, insofar as when you do level up, you'll already have the spells, but I'm not convinced that it's worth it. I don't know if the initial premise that the scrolls won't keep up with you is actually true, and I don't know if the extra Fighter HP (and maybe feats) is worth not having the additional Wizard levels (and spell slots for the lower-level spells).

Besides, what does "spells close to commensurate with... the difficulty of the enemies he's facing" mean? Yeah, OK, Sleep stops being useful after a while, but Magic Missile gets more effective the higher your level. I don't see a whole lot of "specialty" spells in the spell list that are going to somehow turn the tide against particular difficult enemies other than the full Planar Binding spells and the ultra-useful stuff like Delayed Blast Fireball and the Mass Buff spells. I don't know where you get those from, being only halfway through, so I don't know if that's the kind of thing people are talking about. But I'm not seeing a problem with using the lower-level spells that I do have more effectively, as opposed to needing specific higher-level spells that I don't yet have to defeat what I have so far encountered.

Alternate spells, of course. My Ranger(4)/Wizard(10) can cast Entangle, Minor Elemental Barrier, and Sunscorch (plus Summon Nature's Ally I, which I never use). This enables her to support my Druid(8)/Cleric(6) with additional area for Entangle (we're very big on "impede movement" in my party), and to provide additional party members with protection from the elements before she Fireballs the Entangled enemies, and the Protected party members who are meleeing with those enemies.

Plus, a Ranger gets almost as large an HP die as a Fighter, so she can melee if she really has to (given that she can also dual-wield, having "no" armor), but she's not meant to melee. She's a magic user, so I gave her a dual that increased that rather than reduced it.

Entangle, Entangle, Entangle. Call Lightning. Rainstorm. Flame Strike. Nondetection. Freedom of Movement. I admit I don't know if a L9 Ranger gets L4 spells, some of these effects can be replicated with Wizard spells or potions, I am using the Weimer Ease-of-Use "stronger Druid spells" mod, and unfortunatly a Ranger doesn't seem to get Spike Growth, but Ranger/Druid spells are very seriously useful.

You will be involved in some very large, very spread out battles, involving several groups of enemies coming from different directions. If you don't have a way to stop and bunch the enemy, every member of your party is going to get swarmed. I'm not big on Summonses, so it might be that you can use them to get the enemy locked up (by making the enemy swarm the summons), but even so, having the enemy Entangled (or Webbed, indoors) around that Summons makes it a whole lot easier to kill great numbers of them with an area-effect spell, and keeps your party a lot safer.

Sorcerors get up to Summon Monster IX. And how does a Wizard "discard" a spell? Oh, you mean just "un-memorize" it. Yeah, OK, so just don't take Summon Monster I (the tips in the Log window warn you about taking spells that "become less useful as you progress") and take Magic Missile or something, and create a "temporary" strategy that doesn't rely on the Sorceror being a Summoner until such time that he actually is.

This is not possible. You can't be "all-encompassing" and also sufficiently specialized to be "potent and effective at each respective strategy". There is a reason why a "jack-of-all-trades" is "master of none". You really need to whittle yourself down to a main strategy, and a couple of alternates, and focus on making your party as strong as possible with those few variations.

But you can't define a truly effective strategy without knowing the layout of the battlefield. And you can't know that unless you get on with playing, unless you want us to tell you the entire game, what enemies you'll be facing and where they're going to be coming from for each and every battle.

There is a point with this game where you have to stop planning, and play. I'd say you've reached it. Don't worry, you will get to plan further as you see where your original ideas are not going to work as you hoped, and then can design workarounds to compensate.

I guess you are hoping that we will warn you of any big glaring mistakes you've made, but we can't do that. There are no mistakes in this game, insofar as any party is supposed to be able to make it through (though some parties have a harder time than others). The only mistakes you can really make is designing a party that has to play out in a radically different style than your personal play style (finding that you have to send your MUs in to melee, for example, instead of having support for leaving them a clear area to cast spells in). And nobody can know your playstyle for this game.... until you play it.

Heck, at least try the beginning area(s). If you find the party isn't as effective as you like, you can start over without having to re-do too much, although I would suggest playing through the entire Prologue to effectively test the party.

 

As far as the wizard goes, I have a rouge who jumped over to being a wizard at level 3, and has higher spells remembered than he may cast. Then again considering he is a drow ...

Druids ROCK (if you have the Weimers mod I guess).
If I ever find my Ranger[1]/Druid[x] at the wrong end of the stick I simply change her into a Rhemorazz and watch the fun begin. Now when can a Ranger do that

AFAIK Deflect-arrow and SubVocal-Castng are not much use. If your spellcasters hang back while the meleers plunge in, who do you think gets targetted? Wear a ring if you want a +1 Deflection Bonus.
Heroic Inspiration is great and Cleave can be of real use from right after you leave Targos.
Some Feats like Resist-poison for HalfOrcs and Snake-blood for Humans are available only at charecter creation so do check the Feat details.

And since my Half-orc Barb got Sherincal's Great Sword he hasn't taken up anything else (My Dwarf uses all those awsome axes).

 

if you ever take Imp Critical be wise and take dirty fighting too. and if you ever take dirty fighting, be smart and take Imp. iniative.
They support each other.

If you have problems with too many feats, take one lvl Rogue and pick Artely Strike.
Flank an opponent and if he flees or takes even one point damage, he is going to die.
Don't mix this for Wounding weapon ability. it has limited working time, while Artely Striek does not have.
Also every light armored (or none) should have two lvls of rogue to have evasion ability. or if druid, one lvl monk (AC bonus top of all).

if your character makes 20+ points of damage with one swing, it is resonable to take (Great) Cleave to the max.
if a opponent drop's in two swings and you got four (4) attacks in round, great cleave pumps that to six's (6) attacks in round. two attacks + cleave + two attacks + cleave = 6 attacks.
my solo drow has dropped eight (8) opponents with "one" swing (all lvl 1 attacks).
beaty to behold.

Dash, dodge and deflect arrows are the last one's you need. get expertise if you need higher AC and boots of speed.

all feats that increase skill cheacks should be avoided like hell.
you got Skill Points per LVL to rise those skills, don't be stupid and use feats to do it. specialy when you can't use skill points to replace feats.

spell focuese should be taken only by characters that focus around one type of spells and cast those lots.
so Greater spell focus (Enhancement) to bards, necromancy/transmutation/evocation for wizards/sorcers.

subvocal casting should be take _after_ the _first time_ your character gets silenced. before that it is 100% obsolite.

each, i realy mean every damn one, character that gets 4th lvl spells should get enough ranks in spellcraft to get all of the feats that give resistance and bonus damage to elements.
(here is gamebug that allows characters with high enough int to acquire access to those feats without a single point in spellcraft. this bug conserns actualy every skill. horrible bug)

also you should think about having only one wizard in your group and keep him Rog/wiz. two Sorcers pack a huge bang while still having the most vital combat spells. wizard can tangle with the knock and such semi-support spells.

 

well it tested it with a two caster.
the other one that had imp. iniative got his spells off faster.
so are you sure about that broken feat thing?