Which weapons?

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Now that I've restarted, I'm wondering which weaponskills are worth developing? I'd rather avoid spoilers, including any specifics (ie. 'the best weapon in the game is a...'); but I'd like to have an idea of which weaponskills are good, ok, and rubbish.

 

Long swords, bows, 2 handed swords, maces, polearms. Those are the main ones that I use.

 

I don't recommend spending feats for weapons.
There are many more useful feats, especially but not only for casters.

For weapon focus you gain only +1 AB with only one weapon type.
If you have a fighter with too many feats, then you can get weapon specialisation. The +2 extra damage help more than the +1 AB.

Some weapons are random, so it might be better to take the feat which help with all weapons first and the weapon feats later.

The weapon types which do the most damage are greatswords, polearms and axes.

 

Then wait until you find a weapon you really like and get the feat then.

Don't spoil your fun.

 

Good weapons can be found in every type, so you should decide which are (is) the one(s) your character is dedicated to. Then just look out for them if they come.

 

As Kmonster has written, it's not critical to have more than 1 point in any weapon feat. Mages are probably better off spending their feat points on arcane related feats. OTOH, if you're playing a fighter, you'll probably have more feat points than you know what to do with.

If you're playing a paladin, there's some interesting feats, like heretic's bane or fiendslayer. But I'm of the opinion that a you're almost better off taking a point in your favorite weapon than with either of those two feats, since those bonuses work 100% of the time, whereas you'll only get the heretic's bane or fiendslayer bonuses when you are attacking specific target types.


If you're playing a cleric, it's not a terrible idea to spend a feat point on a martial weapon type that you like to use, since clerics only get simple weapon feats to start. For example, if your cleric likes to use polearms, why not spend a feat point to become marginally proficient?

 

There are lots of good weapons of all types in this game so I wouldn't get too concerned.

 

All non fighters should take mace and bows if able. There seems to be an abundance of mace/morninstars throughout the game. And who could possible use all the magic arrows.

 

I disagree. Every class but druid starts with crossbow profiency, early on the crossbows you find are quite good and thrown weapons will do more damage when you find them since any missile weapon but bow and crossbow grants strength bonus.
No need to waste a feat for getting proficient or a little +1 AB bonus.

I wouldn't waste a feat for maces either. I don't remember any really good maces or morningstars.

 

Most classes get proficient with maces at the start and that second point in weapons don't give much.
Take weapon feats only for proficiency with a martial weapon you plan to use or for fighters since specialization gives +2 damage, which can make a difference. Most classes have better feats to pick.
Axes are probably the best choice if you have to pick a weapon proficiency for a cleric or specialisation for a fighter. They come in both one and twohanded versions and they also exist as throwing axes.

 

Like Kmonster said, crossbows aren't bad and there's also plenty of magical bolts available throughout the game. And I've often been fond of letting my non-elven mages use crossbows, rather than waste a feat to make them proficient in bows.

Also, thrown weapons are actually quite useful for your strongest tanks, so that they can add their STR bonus to damage. That said, while the best throwing axes are better than the best throwing hammers, nearly all throwing axes suffer from a pathetic maximum range, whereas throwing hammers have a decent max range.

 

I would advise against using the good bolts, arrows and darts you find since they can be sold for a lot of cash. They are usually my largest income source in the game! Using some on the hard bosses is ok, but avoid using them on easier enemies.

 

Here's the problem with proficiencies. A single level in Fighter, Barbarian, Paladin, or Ranger gets you all weapon proficiencies. If you aren't willing to do even that, clearly weapon damage isn't very important to your character, so you should stick with the weapons your class gets for free, and spend your feats on something more important, most likely spellcasting-related.

Besides which, all the non-warrior classes have good weapon choices:

Everyone except Druids get crossbow proficiency.
Everyone except Wizards get "missiles" (darts and slings).
Rogues and Elves/Drow get bows.
Rogues, Bards, Druids, and and Elves/Drow get large swords
*Everyone* gets maces and short swords. There are some pretty good maces in the game. The barbarian village sells one with +2d6 fire damage.
Druids get polearms!

Also, it has been said before by others, but I'll say it again: weapon focus is junk. Weapon specialization is worth taking, but not if you're giving up four spellcaster levels to qualify.

 

Mudde, I hate selling off the good ammo that I actually want to use, mostly arrows. OTOH, there's something to be said about selling off the ammo that you don't really have any intent to use.

However, you make a great point about not wasting good ammo on lesser enemies. It may not seem like much of an issue for someone who will only take a couple of shots before switching to melee weapons or spellcasting. But a dedicated archer can certainly burn thru a lot of ammo as they gain levels and have more attacks per round. In fact, this becomes a serious issue in HOF where your archer (if you have one) will burn thru ammo like crazy. In HOF, your best ammo is returning/everlast ammo, when attacking anything less than the nastiest foes.


I wouldn't totally write off darts. As STR bonus adding throwing weapons, they are actually rather useful weapons for strong tanks in some situations, like if you've entangled a target and don't want to get in melee range of it (don't want to let it swing a sword at you), but don't mind throwing darts at it.

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JT, you make a number of good points.

Most classes have a good mix of useful weapon profs. However, I can see a strong desire for clerics to want to take a prof in polearms or axes, if they wanted to get some better edged weapons than are available in the "Simple" weapons profs.


Weapon Spec. is useful, but the cost to get it is too high for a spellcaster, who should be more concerned with casting spells than in great skill in physical weapons which they should be seeking to avoid using in battle.

The "cost" of taking 4 fighter levels for a non-spellcasting "first" class is considerably less. And the +2 damage per hit may be worth the cost for any character who is a physical warrior, not a spellcaster.


As far as the value of Weapon Focus, I can understand the argument that a mere +1 AB isn't worth the cost. It's a strong argument. However, many of the other feats aren't really all that great either, particularly the non-spellcasting ones.

One way that I compare the value of a feat is how often will it come into play. For example, the Fiendslayer (paladin only) feat only comes into play when you are attacking a demon or dragon, not exactly a common occurance.

I don't want to go thru all of the feats, but I think that it's possible to say that as weak as the weapon focus feat may feel, it may be a more useful feat than many of the other options. At least you get to use it 100% the time you fight with that particular weapon, regardless of your target.

[ December 29, 2006, 19:10: Message edited by: crucis ]

 

This would only matter against creatures that are resistant to bludgening (mace) and piercing (most ranged weapons). Against such monsters, I'd say the cleric should just stand by and let other characters handle it. Or he could grab a slashing weapon and use it unproficient. Spending a feat here is wasteful, even though he doesn't need them as badly as other spellcasters do.

Well then, *I* will go through the feats.

First consider how many feats a character gets access to. Normal characters get feats at levels 1, 3, 6, etc; the total is eleven at level 30. Wizards get bonus feats at 1, 5, 10, etc; seven bonus feats by level 30. Rogues get bonus feats at levels 10, 13, 16, etc; the first one will certainly be spent on Improved Evasion, leaving six extra feats by level 28. Fighters get bonus feats at levels 1, 2, 4, etc; but a character with 4+ Fighter levels isn't relevant to this "Weapon Focus without Weapon Spec" discussion. Humans get one extra feat.

*However*, both times I've gotten to level 30 was with level-squatting and muling. I don't know if is possible to hit 30 legitly; if so it is not until very late in HOF mode. So it is foolish to pretend that a typical character has eleven feats to work with, because for almost the entirety of his career, he will have much less than eleven feats. For instance, if Weapon Focus turns out to be the 9th-best feat for a cleric, that means he won't get it until level 24, deep in HoF mode. The feat may no longer by relevant to him at that point.

Arbitrarily, I'll pick level 15 as the cutoff in normal mode; if a character obtains a feat after this point, it will not have a meaningful impact on the game before HoF. At level 15, a normal character has six feats. A wizard has four extra. A rogue has one extra. A human has one extra.

So here are the feats which I think are better than Weapon focus.

- (casters only) Most spellcasting feats, of which there are many.
- (melee only) Cleave
- Dash (whether you're running towards the enemy or away from him, faster is better)
- Dirty Fighting (not sure about this one; what is the DC?)
- (melee only) Dodge
- (high-AC only, requires 13 Int) Expertise
- Improved Critical
- (normal mode only) Iron Will
- Lightning Reflexes
- (human only) Luck of Heroes
- (melee only) Power Attack (needed for Cleave)
- (ranged only) Precise Shot
- (ranged only) Rapid Shot

(Ambidexterity and TWF would be worthwhile, but taking a level of ranger is an obviously better choice.)

After all that, I think it comes down to the fact there are very few optimized normal-mode character builds which can afford to spend a feat on Weapon Focus, but cannot afford to take four Fighter levels for Weapon Spec. Casters benefit more from casting feats. Monks don't use weapons. Rangers, Barbarians, and Paladins can easily afford the dip into Fighter; in fact they will overall benefit from it. So we're left with... single-class Rogues, who don't want to give up +2d6 sneak attack damage to gain +2 every attack damage.

[ December 30, 2006, 07:23: Message edited by: JT ]

 

This is wrong. It's impossible to get bastard word proficiency in any way except by spending a feat on it.

Maces are at most 1d8+5 damage. They are all one handed and have 2x crit damage with a crit threat range of 20. Halberds are 1d10+x damage with 3x crit damage with a crit threat range of 20, with the notable exception being the 2d10+4 Massive Halberd of Hate with its 3x crit damage and threat range of 19-20. Axes range from 1d6 to 2d12+5 damage and have 3x crit damage with threat range of 20, with the exception of certain keen weapons. Consider a fully buffed cleric with 16 base str.

Set buffs:
+4 dmg Holy Power
+1 dmg Prayer
+5 dmg Power Attack
+2 dmg Emotion: Hope
+8 str Champion's Str

We are now considering a 24 str character. Lets compare the average mace damage vs. average halberd and greataxe damage. We will make the assumption that all hits besides critical miss will hit.

1d8+5 mace:
normal average damage: (1+8)/2+5+7+4+1+5+2=28.5
avg to hit dice multiplier: (0+1*18+2*1)/20=1
avg dmg/hit: 28.5
avg to hit dice multiplier (with Executioner's Eyes): (0+1*14+2*5)/20=1.2
avg dmg/hit (w/ EE): 34.2

1d10+5 halberd:
normal average damage: (1+10)/2+5+10.5+4+1+5+2=33
avg to hit dice multiplier: (0+1*18+3*1)/20=1.05
avg dmg/hit: 34.65
avg to hit dice multiplier (with Executioner's Eyes): (0+1*14+3*5)/20=1.45
avg dmg/hit (w/ EE): 46.85

1d12+5 greataxe:
normal average damage: (1+12)/2+5+10.5+4+1+5+2=34
avg to hit dice multiplier: (0+1*18+3*1)/20=1.05
avg dmg/hit: 35.7
avg to hit dice multiplier (with Executioner's Eyes): (0+1*14+3*5)/20=1.45
avg dmg/hit (w/ EE): 49.3

2d10+4 Massive Halberd of Hate:
normal average damage: (2+20)/2+4+10.5+4+1+5+2=37.5
avg to hit dice multiplier: (0+1*17+3*2)/20=1.15
avg dmg/hit: 43.125
avg to hit dice multiplier (with Executioner's Eyes): (0+1*14+3*6)/20=1.55
avg dmg/hit (w/ EE): 58.125

2d12+5 Massive Greataxe of Flame
normal average damage: (2+24)/2+4+10.5+4+1+5+2=39.5
avg to hit dice multiplier: (0+1*17+3*2)/20=1.15
avg dmg/hit: 45.425
avg to hit dice multiplier (with Executioner's Eyes): (0+1*14+3*6)/20=1.55
avg dmg/hit (w/ EE): 61.225

The same cleric using a the Massive Halberd of Hate +4 (available from chapter 5 normal mode and beyond) scores 70% more damage per hit as compared to the one using a 1d8+5 mace. This isn't something negligible. While the character can use a pole arm or greataxe without proficiency, he does so with -4 attack. The difference that this makes depends on the AC of the enemy and other attack bonuses of the character, but it can be as large as hitting only in the crit range vs. crit range and 4 other attack rolls.

"What about shield?" Consider the wis AC bonus from having a monk level with a character having 18 base wis: 18+5 (Every God's Ring)=23 wis, so his total AC +6 from wis modifiers and +6 from Spirit Armor=+12, compared to the the +10 from a mithral full plate and +4 from a large shield +2=+14.

 

Can clerics even get polearm proficiency without a mod? Of all your chars, the cleric needs the best AC, this is the one guy you dont want to die. And why was one level dip into monk for AC bonus, since clerics can use all armor and shield, magic plate and a magic shield (hey someone should use one of thoise that you found) is way above what you can get with monk AC bonus. Unless the cleric is the only party member that can dish melee damage, I think a secondary meleer with a great magic mace aint bad.

 

All classes can take all weapon profiencies in IWD2.

 

One Monk level gives better speed, evasion and a bonus to saves. Not that bad if you think you need these perks (evasion helps a lot even when wearing an armour).

 

I'll agree that most of these are solid choices. However, some have prerequisites that not every character can meet.

I'm gonna completely pass on commenting on the spellcasting feats. IMHO, it's a given that mages should focus on them over weapons feats. However, I think that it's a bit less certain about whether clerics and druids can get great value from some of the spellcasting feats.

Of the feats you list above, the ones that I like are: Dash, Dodge, Improved Critical, and Rapid Shot. Iron Will and Lightning Reflexes can be useful as well.

Expertise's 13 INT prereq seems to limit its usefulness. Not a bad feat for a wizard to take.

Power Attack and Cleave have never impressed me terribly. I wouldn't take Precise Shot on a bet. If my archer is going to end up in melee, I'm gonna have him switch to a melee weapon, not use his bow at point blank range.


BTW, on Dash, it's not always a feat that I take quickly for most characters. Oh, I like giving it to any rogue that I have, pretty early on so that they can move more quickly while scouting or running away. And while I do eventually give it to all characters in my parties, my prefered battle tactics tend to not require greater foot speed, except for my rogue. I prefer to let the enemy come to me, rather than charge headlong into them. I like to take a ranged shot or 2 while the enemy is closing on my position, rather than waste the time running towards them. This also allows me to keep my formation once the battle is truly joined.


Also, a feat that you did not mention that I find can be rather useful for certain (i.e. weaker) characters is Strong Back. A mage with a low STR who seems barely able to carry his own weight can actually get some decent value out of this feat. I'm not saying that I always have some character in my party take it, but I have taken it on occasion to improve that carrying capacity of a overly weak mage.

Maybe it's "wasteful" in a perfectly efficient powergaming cleric, but I'm fond of letting my clerics get down and dirty in most melees. And I'm rather fond of letting them be armed with Spears or Halberds or 2H axes. Yes, when there's a nasty boss-level monster (the guardian dragon, in particular), I tend to have my cleric hang back and cast certain spells. But most of the time, I treat my cleric as a backup tank.


Mokona:

I fully agree that there's not a bit wrong with arming a cleric with a good 2H polearm or 2H axe, particularly if the cleric in question has high STR (magical or otherwise). I also believe that it's only good training strategy for your physical combat characters to be proficient in weapons that do at least 2 different types of damage.

Oh, I suppose one could argue that a cleric is already proficient in blunt and piercing damage weapons with Clubs/Maces and Short Swords. But why limit yourself to such a wimpy weapon as a short sword, if you have a good strong (probably lowish DEX) cleric? I see nothing wrong with wanting to be proficient in something a bit nastier.


Another, but related, point is that I also like to have a wide variety of proficiencies in my party so that when I find or purchase something new and nasty, I'll have a character who's proficient with it. Just my preference.