Are Fighters useless? in PvM NOT PvP

Remove all ads!

Casey
GWW is a beast of a HLA. More than once Sarevok and Korgan have totally munched a dragon using it. What else is there to choose from? Critical strike is nice but how do you use it against things immune to critical hits?

Fighters are not useless. They serve their purpouse very well - reliable damage and meat shield. Sure you get Rangers, Paladins and Barbarians who also do this job, but a fighter will enjoy the benefits of grandmastery or a large number of weapons to choose from and crazy saves. The last thing you want is your meat shield turning on your party after being charmed.

 

I never found that one mage was enough to take down enemy spellcaster protections. So I'd take:
fighter: kills things without needing to rest
cleric: can heal and can use the only really needed spell against mages: True Sight. They can also cast restoration (aka the most needed spell in BGII IMHO).
thief: scouting (this was a military operation after all), disabling traps and opening locks. Can take out enemy mages before they place their protections.

I've never understood why everybody is so enthousiastic about the a mage taking down enemy spell caster defences. Mine never gets to it since he is almost constantly trying to take down the spell protections so by the time he can start taking down damage protections the enemy spellcaster is already almost dead.

 

Ok, here's my result after testing:
If you have the Scarlet Ninja-to and Belm both equiped, you'll get 5 attacks per round. However, surprisingly enough, the first time I did this test, I got 10 attacks, then I re-equiped either of them, and got down to 5 attacks. From then on I could only get 5 attacks whatever the case is.

If I have only the Ninja-to or the Belm equiped (the off hand was empty), I got only *1* attack per round.

If I have Daystar and Belm or Ninja-to equiped, 3 attacks per round.

If I have just Daystar equiped, 10 attacks per round.

 

I agree that GWW is a great HLA but you can do more damage with an improved hasted dual weilding fighter against most enemys with critical strike then you can GWW and there's only 2 out of 10 attacks less so your not missing much really, but it's good to have at least 2 GWW's for bosses b the time the fighters use them up you could easily win but for me the rest would be CS.

The Paladin can use everything the fighter can except that 2H sword in the underdark I forgot the name of and Black Razor, Purifierand Carsomyr are Paladin only weapons so there pretty much even I think and they get a +2 bonus to saves, but I know Paladins a lot better then fighters so please tell me if I'm missing something.

Strife: I don't think Crom can force all locks open that don't need a key. But I may be wrong, maybe the SoA locks but I'm not sure about ToB

Well all these combinations are all good and can handle things differently but as for my own choice I'd take.

Kensai:
About the only word to accurately describe the Kensai in battle is awesome, he does miss occasionally but that's rare enough to not matter and with certain items and 18 dex I can get his ac down to -5 using single weapon style (-7 afer SoA if playing evil).

Swashie: Tank, Traps scout
Need at least one scout and someone to stop the trio from stumbling to a spiky end

Sorcerer: spell thrower
with wish and high wis there's no need for rest.

Notice that I didn't include healing and I have a Paladin? well since there's a lot of mages their I decided that in a case like this an inquisitor is better then a cleric as long as you make sure you let the summoned fodder take the hits.

Also I can't belive we all forgot about the L10 mage spell Plantar! the Planetar can cast healx3 bah who needs Clerics?

Edit: I don't see anyone including kit's? I think it's alright to do so since the F, M, T, and C are only the base classes all the kits and other classes all come from these four classes so it should be ok if it's in BGII

[ January 04, 2004, 09:47: Message edited by: casey ]

 

Ya planetar actually destroys the need for a cleric and a fighter lol. Its a beastly spell.

 

casey could you clarify your rebuttal for fighters being the only characters able to attain grand mastery? To me, this is the only reason to play a fighter (no ToB so no HLA's)

About the kits: nothing terribly special:

A lightly armoured, high offense power rival to the kensai would be a monk. But the monk can heal himself, moves faster, and can sneak to get the first hit in. Kai is neat for extra damage, but stunning blow and quivering palm are better.

Berserker rage is pretty cool. It grants some HP and many immunities... sounds like something a cleric would do with buffs and Chaotic Commands. No imprisonment protection though, so the cleric would need to read a scroll or something. Maybe go cleric/ranger with blade barrier if you want to deal more melee damage.

Wizard Slayer is fairly unique. But if we call him a mage killer, then its already covered by the inquisitor above (using Carsomyr of course for the magic resistance). Insect swarm from a druid is also a mage killer. So we see his role as a mage killer is matched easily by other classes.

 

With the Kensai's supreme weapon initiative [-1 for every 4 levels, IIRC], the Monk will eat a Smite first. Follow that up with Greater Whirlwind [+1 damage every 3 levels] and you got Monk chunks. The Kensai never misses at high levels unless you roll a 1 on your attack roll. Quivering palm? Bah.

No melee class can beat a kensai in a straight up fight. Unless the Paladin summons a Planetar first.

Berserker/Vanilla fighter: the ideal dual/class platform.

Mages crumble before the Wizard Slayer with Greater Whirlwind and a bow.

Are Fighters useless? Definitely not. In fact, they are the most versatile and devastating combat class in 2nd edition D&D with awesome THAC0 and saving throws.

But then, since Casey is adamant on the uberness of sorcerers [lame] and other casters being superior to the fighter, who can change his mind?



Personally, I really cannot be bothered to cast three or four buffing spells for EVERY fight in the game. Sarevok and Korgan smacks the simple enemies into oblivion while the rest of the party hangs back and conserve their spells for the big fights. I don't like resting every five minutes as well.

The Swashbuckler replacing the Fighter? A joke. They lack HP, THAC0 and saving throws. Not to mention that their AC is generally poorer. Even the Monk cannot stand up to a high level Kensai as illustrated in my first post. And paladins are so overpowered to the point of cheese in BG2 that I simply refuse to use them. What's more, Lawful Good = dumb. Rangers? Country bumpkins. Barbarians? Uncouth brutes with no discipline.

I shall always take a Fighter over any other melee class and have at least one of them in my party. Yes, the wizard's spells might own [sorcerers are the lamest thing to happen to D&D, though], the cleric keeps the party on their feet, the thief scouts and clears the traps but there is always a place for the big guy in plate armor with a sword and shield to bust up some heads so that everyone else can do their stuff.

 

Do note that fighters progress faster in levels for better THACO, saves, more HP, and HLA's.

 

And even paladins are part of the fighter pool so to speak, so if you admit their useful your whole arguement is voided. Just like if you admit monks, rangers, or barbarians are useful your arguement is voided.

 

@ Shura: you keep on saying Sorcerers are lame, but you haven't given any reason other then that your too impatiant to cast a couple of quick spells. It's about power, not a biased view on what everyone personally perfers, also I'm not so in love with Sorcerers that a bit of reasoning won't change my view, actually I've only ever played the Sorcerer once and fighter classes more often then then spell casters.

Also BGII is not 2nd edition that's there, this is here and it's just the way it is unfortunatly for anyone who's been D&Ding since then.

And who said Swashbucklers replace fighters? not me, I said they are almost as damaging as fighters and when they get UAI and lvl 40 a Swashbucklers ac can match the fighter + the 8 ac bonus.

The reason I said this for the Swashbuckler and not the paladin is because you don't really need to put a sign on him saying "tank"

Well if your going to take grandmastery you need the ease of use mod to make it worth while otherwise you'll only get about +2 to damage and +1 to Thac0 or something like that instead of the extra half attack a round.

Well I've never been a straight Fighter myself but I've had a Paladin with hp and save's to match Sarevok's, and the other shortcomings of the Paladin can be made up for in different way's, so all in all I think they have an equal chance against each other, besides if we're going to start comparing classes with each other they both only need to cast GWW and it's all over.

Well saying that mainly just give's some extra choices for fighters and if you put them under anywhere then it would be the fighter, since that's what there best at, but I'll go and edit the Paladin to use a different character if that's the case.

 

Yes, as long as there's also a mage or sorcerer in the party.

Primarily because no one has the patience for buffing or economizing.
Secondly because even though these classes can beat a fighter, few classes are as effective at dishing out physical damage constantly and as reliably as fighters are able.
This is the fighter's last remaining use in ToB that defines it from other classes.

A cleric with even 500% resistance will die if the fighter just happened to be using the Chaos blade, Blackrazor, or Soul Reaver.

@Shura
You're being too direct. No sane character would tough out a fighter that way.
Ever considered what invisibility could do in any of those battles?


A fighter has too many weaknesses that other classes can exploit PvP.
If it has to be PvP, the F/M/T and more so the Blade would have the best chance against all the other classes since they have no distinct weaknesses, and they can do anything in a game which allows you to be the best at anything. With this they can exploit and abuse any class' weaknesses.
Party-wise, however, it's an entirely different story.

I agree, magic is very overpowered in BG2.

What is the most useful class for any party? That depends. For magic oriented parties what you need most would be a fighter, since physical damage is the most reliable damage-type in the game. For a fighter-oriented party, the mage would be most useful.

Clerics and Bards are the most useful for any party as a whole, since they were made to be that way - the cleric with his spells and the Bard for being able to take over any lacking position and enhance the party's abilities.

The most useless? Beastmaster, when compared to any other class.

 

I think the Beast master could be alright if he had some Druid spells and his wolf summons were actually powerful, for all those that read Wheel of Time think of Perrin, and maybe give him some greater Wolfwere type of polymorph ability and it would be balanced.

And yet you always go on about how good the Blade can get "if buffed and economized" Clerics can protect themselves from level drain effects and if they are buffed enough and are dual wielding Crom and FoA Improved hasted they can potentially take out any class in Melee quite quickly. This could be even better if you were able to take a level one ranger and dual to a Cleric I know what I said about dualing, but by the time a Cleric can cast level 7 spells that little Damage, Thac0, etc. bonus would count for very little and leave the cleric with some very good Druid spells.

 

With improved haste thats 4 attacks per round. Correct me if im wrong but thats not exactly much. Just what exactly could the cleric take on with those stats. Certianly none of the improved tob bosses. They would dispel magic and rip him aside in 10 seconds, tops.

 

Well, my fighter was able to deal with ANYTHING.
Clerics, thieves, dragons, and mages. Just kicked them in the head till they're dead... (I mean till the protections disolved).
She was very good, because she always kept the casters in relative peace, so they were able to throw comets and dragon breaths over her head (and the monsters surounding her).

It's completely different without front-liners. No one else can take monsters even when her spells run out... just remember when it last happened! Would you take Demogorgon without good basher? I wouldn't.

 

kensai, kensai, kensai....and umm....kensai....and sword saint

fighters are good, and can handle most situations (exept thiefs jobs, locks and traps that is.)

though the vanille (pure) fighter sucks, the kits are great. (kensai hehe).

you all probably figured out by now that i just love kensai's. so many uses for them hehe

 

@ Death:

I agree completly, so many uses, click here, hack them to pieces, click there, hack them to pieces etc.

Ok here's my unofficial not necessarily infallible rating for the Kensai.

Fighting-20/10
Theiving- 0/10
Spells - 0/10
Healing - 0/10

Kensai imo in terms of damage and Thac0 is the Elminster of Fighters and can even get a decent enough AC to not die in 3 rounds.

I play Kensai's for fun all the time and it makes me laugh watching him at work on some Golems/Trolls/Umberhulks, just get 6+ of them bottled in a doorway and it's slash, thrust, next, don't get blood on the carpet ladies, slash, thrust (this was supposed to be funny but I can't remember what I was about to say.)

Actually the Kensai and Archer and to a lesser extent Cavalier are the only fighting kits I can ever bother with.

 

hehe, good to hear.

i especially like to solo a dual classed kensai.
kensai\thief
kensai\mage
kensai\cleric

etcetera.......


so powerful......so very powerful........

 

@Casey
That's the problem. There are many ways to avoid having to buff or rest too often, but the contrary has already been embedded deeply on the gaming instincts of many.
A cleric can't protect himself from stat drain, though he can protect himself from level drain.

[ January 05, 2004, 12:59: Message edited by: Scythesong Immortal ]

 

Though I'm sure the conversation has moved well past me I just noticed a horrid mistake in my last post to this thread. I said fighters were totally useless....that was supposed to be useful... my fingers have an annoying habit of not listening to my brain. Apologies on that, I'm a fighter girl all the way.

 

Kensai has no durability. Dies to fast in true hack'n'slash. Pure fighter rules!
(if you insist, put "or berserker" in there)

And one more thing:

I thing that improved haste sets your attacks to 2 + 1 offhand + 2 from those weapons, =5.
(fighter would get 5 + 1 + 2 =8, but it's far better to use greater whirlwind, get 10 with better weapons. Apart from this, you can use +5 wepons this way, which belm and the other certainly aren't. IIRC, they are only +2.)