Thief Trade-offs

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Well, I'm starting to get in deep into Chapter 5 and am confirming what I suspected earlier, I've totally screwed up on my Thief skill points.

Imoen was never any good early at picking locks (I'm not sure what I chose on her first level up), so I feel I've missed out since there were few items I could liberate from locked storage drawers.

When I got Coran, he seemed more advanced in that so I plunked points Open Locks only to now find he can't detect a trap to save his life (pun intended). At this time, I also developed the tactic (somewhat late in fact) of Hiding in Shadows to scout ahead and of course the almighty backstab. Frankly I'm still not too pleased with the backstab since he misses a little too much. (Although watching him swing three times while hidden is pretty comical.)

I dualled Imoen and it seemed forever for her to get to level 6 mage to be able to thief again. Of course, I didn't remember what her stats were at from when I dualled her and now that I know, she can't detect traps for sh!t either and she can't hide in shadows.

With only one Shadow Armor available I'm waiting for her to level up in Mage so I can use more invisibilities because she's never able to hide.

So, with that context...

What is the strategy for thief ability points from the get go.

I'm assuming Imoen will not be my only thief, but rather my first thief until I get Coran (in no particular rush though).

Should I focus exclusively on opening locks to gain that equipment/money advantage to the detriment of HiS later?

What about Find/Disarm Traps? I've got Yeslick and Jaheira finding them, but it doesn't do me any good since neither of Immy/Coran can disarm them. Firewine was a pain in the @ss knowing a trap was there, but not being able to disarm.

By the way, this is what makes this game great, but on this run, I've overcompensated too little too late to make my thieves pretty ineffective.

Thoughts?

 

Find traps should be a priority. Casting the spell is too annoying. Some traps can be set without too much problem if you use your tank or a mage with mirror image on but some are way too deadly.

Open locks is great but you could pass if you have a character with 18/xx STR, some locks won't break and that's when Draw Upon Holy Might is handy (for the PC or a Cleric).

The other skills are like icing on a cake. You can get items to boost Move Silently/Hide (boots, shadow thief armour). If you don't want to take chances Invisibility is the way to go, you can get the spell early and take advantage of potions and rings of invisibility. At least with the spell you're certain to be able to get into position and get a strike. If you fail just use a ring or gulp a potion and the thief is ready for another go.

Like you posted the game requires some thinking on character development. A low level thief can't master all these skills so you have to make a choice. Imoen can be great to detect traps and open locks. Or if you take Coran you can always leave the locks to him.

IMHO Find Traps and Open Locks are the top priorities if you have only one thief. If the PC is a thief then you can have fun turning him/her into a fulltime backstabber while leaving traps and locks to Immy (if you level her up accordingly).

Don't forget about potions of Master Thievery, gulping down a few of these can turn Coran into a more effective thief.

Pick pockets is my last choice because its not as useful but it can be handy especially if you have a bard in the party (or have some points to spare because you have a thief heavy party).

Thieves love invisibility, spells and potions alike.

 

The problem is that each thief can only really do two skills well. So you have to pick which two you want. Let's look at the skills shall we:

Stealth - can be replaced by invisibility potions, invisibility spells, sanatuary from a cleric. Can be boosted by 50% with shadow armor and boots fo stealth. I think it's clear this isn't a priority.

Pick pockets - can be done more effectively by bards. Very useful, but not essential. This one is a matter of taste, I tend to ignore it.

Open Locks - can be replaced to some extent by bashing with high strength and high strength spells and potions. Often you won't get anything as good as the potion in the container, so potions are a loser. However, the knock spell completely replaces this skill. It's very useful but not essential

Find/Remove traps - the 'find' part can be replaced by the divine spell, but the remove part is irreplaceable. This one has to be the priority.

However, I don't think all is lost for you. You've chosen Coran. He's never going to be any good at traps, and his stealth is fine with the boots and armor. He's also a great archer, and a halfway decent backstabber (have him use a potion of strength before backstabbing). As long as he is with you you have stealth and locks covered. His job is backstab, open locks, shoot bow. His job description will never include find traps.

So you need another thief. Not to worry there are plenty around. You've said that Imoen isn't going to cut it, but she doesn't need to - once dualled she's primarily a mage and her job description is spell casting. So who is left? (All sorts of spoilers)


Alora. Would be great but sadly she can't detect traps either.
Safana - don't know if you've had her go away yet or not. If she's still around and you're high level she'll be level 6 and have 65% find traps. That's not great, but she has three level ups to go, and with potions 80% is all you need. So you just need to get ehr to level 7 and carry lots of potions for all your traps needs to be met.

Skie - if you ditched Eldoth you're out of luck. She has traps at 40% at level 6 so she's harder to use than Safana, but you can still do it.

Montaron - if you had him in your party briefly he'll be low level. You can level him up lots of times and get to 100% find traps very easily. If you never spoke to him you're out of luck he won't eb able to find traps.

Tiax - Has find traps of 50% at level 5/6. So he only has two more level ups to go, but that will get him to a great fidn trap percentage. It will take him a long time to fill this need, and you have to be careful with your reputation as he's evil, but he can also be your only cleric, so he easily replaces someone else in the party.

So you have a bunch of choices. I think Safana is best, Tiax if you don't mind having to worry about reputation.

EDIT: I forgot to mention the Tiax can use DUHM to increase his find traps by 10% in addition to the 20% from a potion of perception. Of course a potion of agility can add another 10% to that. That's a ton of micromanagement, but it does give him an advantage to thieves with DEX of 18 like Skie.

[ December 06, 2006, 16:25: Message edited by: ister ]

 

Find/Remove Traps and Pick Lock get all the skill points. If my thief can't get into something or disarm a trap, I quaff a potion of Master Thievery or Perception.

 

It's real easy to nerf yourself in thieving skills because you really don't gain that many levels in BG1. To remedy this I like to take two thieves.

Imoen, who I also dual to mage, I dedicate to picking pockets. As a fifth or sixth level thief, she'll be able to take anything from anyone when you get to Baldur's Gate.

The second thief (whoever it happens to be) is dedicated to find/remove traps and open locks. Although stealth is tempting, it really hinders the key thieving abilities and can be acheived through equipment.

 

In my game Imoen got 100 percent find traps before she was dualed. Safana handled lockpicking, but during TotSC she got so many skillpoints that Imoen wasn't needed any more.

I consider spending points in pickpocketing useless:
If you play "no reload" then you won't do it anyway, else a reload more or less doesn't matter.
If you have a bard you can give the gauntlets of dexterity to him and do the pickpocketing with him.

The gauntlets of dexterity are a way to improve the thieving skills temporary for thieves with lower than 18 dex.

Any thief is able to handle the thieving skills alone. You get so many skill points during the game. 75 or 80 in find traps is enough (without TotSC you need even less), lockpicking doesn't have to be higher either (can eve be omitted if you have the "knock" spell) and you get the shadow armor and boots of stealth for +50 stealth. And you don't need 100 for backstabbing.

Alora as pure halfling thief with 19 dex gets even enough skill points to make all 4 skills perfect.


In your case:

I don't know what level your thieves are, how many points they spent in each skill and if you have TotSC installed, so I don't know if Coran can get enough skill points during the game for disarming traps.

There are 3 pairs of boots of stealth in the game so it shouldn't be a problem to get decent stealth for Imoen. You can kill the pickpocketeer in Bereghost who probably got his boots back without reputation loss, especially since he keeps pickpocketing your party.

If you want Coran or Imoen to be more successful with backstabbing then buff them up. Cast "strength" twice for 18/00 strength which will yield +3 thac0 and +6 damage in melee for hours. "Aid" yields another +1 thac0, "luck", other spells or thac0 improving equipment can also help.
But even unbuffed they should be quite successful.

 

I found Coran to be great backstaber, even without pre buffing sesion. Or maybe I was just always lucky with dice rolls, happens to me a lot So, if you want to get rid of those pesky mages, send him to visit them, and he'll usually get the job done. If you give him gauntlets of ogre strenght, he'll be pretty much unstopable. Other than that, Imoen usually covers all of my thieving needs. I never dual class her.

 

kmonster - I don't see how you're going to use Alora to find traps. Unless you manage to meet her when you are level 4 or lower she will be level 6 when you recruit her. And getting through the Cloakwood at level 4 is tricky, so most likely you will be level 5 or higher by the time you get to Baldur's gate. So now you have Alora, level 6 thief with find traps of 20%. It is true that at the TOTSC level cap she'll have level 10 and that is just enough to get you to 100% detect traps. But detect traps below 80% means you'll miss some traps, and she needs 90,000 experience points to get to that level. Heck she needs 50,000 xp to get to the unacceptable 60% find traps. That almost requires doing a lot of the TOTSC content, and most of that content call for a high find traps ability.

Sure you can use Alora to find traps for you. But it's very hard. Any other thief is better. Even Skie has 40% fidn traps at level 6.

 

A simple word... Gatekeeper.

 

ister- There are ways to gain many XP fast.
If you plan to add her in chapter5 you stick to the plot to and don't explore every unneccessary area.
Once she's in the party you can explore the areas on the world map and gain a lot of XP there, even unlimited if you are desperate to get her skills up before proceeding with the plot.
I only claimed that Alora can make all 4 skills perfect (and she can when she reaches the TotSC cap), I didn't write that she'll be perfect a few thousand XP after you meet her.
I agree with you that Alora isn't the solution for lokibeat's current problem.