Dual class into what?

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I'm currently taking my human thief up to level 13, where her backstab multiplier will be maxed out. She's a base class thief, so she will max out at x5 backstab. I use backstab a lot. Her thieving skills will also be at useful levels by then. What should I dual-class into at level 13?

I do not have any reservations about using EEKeeper to shuffle my ability points around. She is True Neutral so I think most other classes should be available to her, but I am willing to switch that too if someone offers a good argument.

So, forget the restrictions, I am only asking what would be the most beneficial class to dual into.

• The most obvious choice would be Wizard, but I already have a Wizard in my party and scrolls for memorization are not very easy to come by in IWDEE. For this reason, my second arcane caster in the party is a sorc.
• I could dual into a Thief/Sorc, but then I thought what about a Thief/Bard? Is that of any practical advantage? I mean, other than upgrading the Sword of Myrloch Vale, does a bard really do anything useful for the party?
• Thief/Blade? Backstabbing with Offensive Spin? Not possible? The thief would become visible the moment I enabled offensive spin, so her attack would no longer be a backstab, right? I have 4 rounds, so maybe I can enable spin, hide, rush to the target and throw in a backstab there an then.
• What about a non-casting class like Thief/Monk? If I want to backstab, is a Thief/Monk of any use? I don't mind micro-managing, so is it possible to backstab with a weapon, then switch to fists for the next attack? Or is a bare-handed backstab possible? If so, is it beneficial?
• The one class I never want in my party is a Paladin. They are just too agressive! The moment they detect evil, they just launch into battle without giving me the choice to talk about the weather with the baddies. Heh
• Thief/Avenger? Gets a few arcane spells in addition to druid spells. Is there any advantage to backstabbing as a sword spider or baby wyvern? Is it even possible? Or just a plain Thief/Druid backstabbing as an Earth Elemental?
  However, I want to avoid druid classes mainly because at some point they go very slowly through levels and I want to become Level 14 as quickly as possible. Also, I won't be able to use metal weapons... which is not a biggie, but isn't great either.
• I can't think of any use for a Ranger, but if someone out there wants to make a case for it...
• What about a Thief/Barbarian? Is backstabbing with Rage any good? A barbarian will also make it easier to survive while the thief class is inaccessible.

The current party is: Fighter, Thief, Totemic Druid (mostly offensive), Cleric (of Tempus, mostly buffing, some disabing), Sorc (mostly disabling), Wiz (disabling, AoE offensive).

I will also continue using her thieving abilities, so I don't want to continuously put on and take off armor -- even though I said I don't mind micro-managing. While I wait for the dual classing to finish, I will use Find Traps and Knock to compensate for the lack of her skills. I think I remember where most of the traps are, so we should be fine!

I play on Insane difficulty, so reaching Level 14 of the second class should not be much of a problem.

Thanks!

 

Okay... it seems this whole idea was purely academic. As I attempted to dual into a Blade, I was rudely informed that the bard classes aren't even available for dualing into. Having a second cleric will only increase my buffing speed, so that's more or less useless, even though they hit 14 at 1.35 million xp and a mage will have to wait till 1.5 million.

Grrr. This is all very depressing. I think I'll just let her continue life as a thief. Shoulda started with an Assassin

 

Just out of curiosity, why not just multi-class instead of dual-class? Save yourself a lot of hassle waiting for your new class to exceed your Thief class. Fighter / Thief is a solid recommend from me, lots of items that can be used to boost AC to be as solid as a shield-using Paladin

https://sorcerers.net/Games/IWD/Walkthrough2/party/the-black-thorn.php

 

Yep, as I noted in my follow-up post, it was a very rude discovery for me that you can only dual into the available multiclasses. In the AD&D handbook, all types of bards can be dual/multiclassed into, but in IWDEE, only the cleric, fighter and mage are available for dualing a thief.
Yes, the proficiencies do work like BGEE. You won't get your points back if you spend them on the same thing.

Yep, but the quarterstaff is an excellent weapon for backstabbing. If you want a shield or want to dual-wield, your only choice is a club. There are very nice staves and clubs in IWDEE, so that is no issue. You are correct though -- you have to plan that in advance.

I played a few times with a pure-class party. Then I played from level 0 with some pure-class, some multiclass. Just wanted to play with a dual class to get a feel for it.

I wanted to dual because for a thief, all levels above 13 are a complete waste, especially if you don't use all their skills like Pickpocket, Detect Illusion and Set Traps (approx 300 skill points). If your thief's primary role is trap disarming, unlocking and backstabbing, you are pretty much golden by level 13. Sure, I'd love more points in Hide and Move Silently, but I'm okay with what I have because my Sorc learnt Invisibility and can reliably hide my thief. Assassins go up to x7 backstab, so there is a point to taking them higher. Plus they get Poison Weapon which is nice. Me loves Assassin.

To me, the thief's biggest advantage is the backstab. One-hit kills many types of enemies. Then, as soon as they attack, they become visible and therefore a magnet for nearby enemies. With their evasion capability (and other pre-buffs), they are also able to eat a few AoE spells thrown their way while being surrounded by said enemies. But all of this goodness of a thief (base class) maxes out at level 13. So dual-classing a thief (in theory) made perfect sense to me.

Of course, I had to start this party and level her up to 13 without first checking if my theory was even viable.

A Cleric/Thief multiclass (not dual) also seems good. To me, they are both utility characters. Cleric for healing, buffing and turning, thief for thieving. Clerics get a lot of self-buffs too. Backstabbing with Holy Power, Draw Upon Holy Might, etc. is sexy. So instead of wasting one party slot, IMO they should be combined into one so that you can have someone else in the party. In my party described above, a Skald, Blade or Monk would make a decent addition. (Fighter/Thief is good, but I kinda like the idea of combining my utility characters into one.)

I haven't tested backstabing out of Sanctuary so I don't know if that's even possible, but now I'm thinking about it. Sanctuary basically makes you invisible to hostiles so ideally it should be one extra way to make a Cleric/Thief invisible.

 

Thanks. I believe I'll run similar tests myself. This cleric/thief is sounding more and more promising, though never as powerful as a mage/thief. The most powerful (I'd say broken) combo in all IE games is Mislead Backstab. Absolutely nothing can stand against it, as long as the targets are not immune to backstab (they'll still take normal damage) and do not innately see invisible. With Improved Haste and a dual-wielding thief, I think one could easily clear out 30-40 enemies with just one character (2 APR from dual-wielding x2 from improved haste = 4 APR, mislead lasts for a round per level... you can easily get 40 whacks in). Just leave your 'image' far away from the monsters And I ain't talking goblins and orcs. Some very high level enemies are also vulnerable to backstabs, though 'bosses' always see invisible.

In IWD2, BG2, etc., you don't even have to be a mage/thief to do it. In IWD2, you just need to put points into Use Magic Device, so technically you can mislead from thief level 1. Except that there is no mislead spell in IWD2. But in theory it would work coz you can cast any scroll if you have enough points in UMD. In BG2 you get it only late game... when you get Use Any Item in your thief's HLAs.

In IWDEE, a mage/thief can technically do it right out of the gate. The trick is in finding a scroll of mislead! A pure-class thief will never be able to though.

 

Aye, as I've acknowledged, that's what I should've done. Also as noted, wanted to try out dualing to get a feel for it. It turned out to be an impractical choice for this run, but we live and learn. Will plan better next time.

Since I've already played many assassins and fallen in love with them, I've gone and made a Cleric/Thief multiclass and a Skald. Created an independent game, leveled them up from the console according to my corresponding characters' XP, then modified my party's characters to match their race, class, stats, skills, spells, song, resistances, paperdoll model, etc. Paid a visit to Orrick to see what spells he had left for the Skald to learn. Can't wait for her to reach level 15 for the +4 to hit +4 damage. I'm already imagining... what if my cleric/thief is within earshot of the song while she backstabs? +20 damage? On top of her already awesome damage? WOW.

Had to juggle their proficiency points to suit the new characters of course. The cleric/thief is only 1/2 levels behind my original cleric and thief.

No biggie, just a massive disappointment is all. And a couple of hours to make sure I didn't mess up the character switch and to run a few tests.

Going well so far. Tested sanctuary backstab: doesn't work. The attacks connected but weren't deemed as backstabs. Just another minor disappointment. I wasn't counting on it since I didn't think about it until a few hours ago. Heck, a few hours ago I wasn't even counting on having a cleric/thief in my party!
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On a separate note: do you (anyone) know what version of IWDEE I require to enable Heart of Fury mode? I have HoW and TotL installed. Don't remember where I got the whole package from (gog or someplace else) but I did get it as one package. Game version says 1.3.2058. My IWD2 config has a heart of fury checkbox, but the IWDEE config doesn't. Can it be enabled with a small patch or do I need to download the full game from somewhere? Or maybe just some variable in baldur.ini?
My baldur.ini has Difficulty Level set to 5 (for insane), and something named Nightmare Mode set to 0. Maybe Nightmare Mode enables HoF? Not trying right now because I'll need to start a new game to test it out. Gonna take a bit of a break.

 

Update: I'm beginning to like Holy Power > Draw Upon Holy Might > Righteous Magic for max damage backstabs. When I have enough spell slots, I'll replace the first two with Champion's Strength. But Shield of Lathander will take priority over CS. 2 rounds of zero damage while in the middle of a mob. Woohoo. My skald is still singing her +2 song, but very soon she will upgrade herself to +4.

This is why I avoid multiclasses. They are just too powerful!
Once dualed a Kensai into a thief and got max damage backstabs using Kai (borrowed idea from another player). Fighter HP, thac0, ... but dualing took work and management. Like not dying for the first several levels without armor, especially a helmet and without the luxury of ranged damage from back of the line. Cleric/Thief multi gives me the same max damage backstab at fighter thac0 WITH armor (a couple per rest, almost same as kai).

 

This is true in the BG series. Not in IWDEE. They 'fixed' that oversight and kensais absolutely cannot do any ranged damage. No thrown weapons. (Never played the original IWD, so dunno about that.) I've tried it in both games with all different weapons to be sure.

 

Thanks for all your inputs. Shelving my Shield of Lathander plan. Casting time of 8 in the middle of a mob is possible, just not very attractive. Same with the desperately ugly IWD Blade Barrier -- caster is immobile for its duration, lasts only 2 rounds. Thought I'd finally found a good use for it, but no.

If casting times for the shield and blade were 3 each, they would've been perfect follow-ups to my backstabs as they both last 2 rounds. Sitting in the middle of 8-10 creatures, twiddling my thumbs while they can do nothing to me, them taking 8d8 damage in return. But with casting times as they are (8+9=17) I'd rather just keep attacking or casting Holy Smite. Along with the rest of my party, most of the mob will be decapitated in 3 rounds.

I'll still try out blade barrier here and there on its own just because, but it doesn't seem like a good long-term option. Definitely not both.

Similarly, shelving the plan to use Champion's Strength. Not being able to cast after CS for 10 rounds is a big penalty. And I dislike spell-induced fatigue (also why I don't memorize Haste except for big bosses).

BTW, kensais can throw bottles of flaming fluids. That is their only ranged damage option I can think of. And fortunately IWD gives lots and lots of small-AoE and large-AoE exploding flasks, and a few potions of firebreath (aghanazer's scorcher).

 

If you're still open to continuing with your original ideas, and open to the idea of playing the character as either a Gnome or a Halfling, the Helm of the Trusted Defender completely immunizes against Fatigue and adds +3 to AC to boot.

 

Non-IWDEE Update: Sanctuary backstab works in IWD2. In fact, it's even more "exploity" because Sanctuary in IWD2 is not a personal spell. A cleric can cast it on anybody, so the rogue doesn't need to have cleric points. A rogue or fighter/rogue can be sanctuaried by any cleric in the party. Not to mention there are so many items that grant sanctuary casts per day. [Not listing sanctuary potions as a reliable strategy because they aren't freely available].

For exploring and disarming traps, invisibility is the better option given sanctuary's round per level duration (and I haven't tested disarming with Sanctuary, not sure if the action will break it), but for backstabs this is perfect because it finally makes (for me) the level 1 spells of a cleric useful. Armor of Faith and Remove Fear are nice, but how many does one really need? Bless is nice-to-have and Command doesn't fit into my playing style after the first few levels. Sanctuary frees up level 2 slots on my arcane caster, letting me replace Invisibility with more Web.

Will test trap disarming later and post an update.

 

Just a note that my last update was specific to IWD2. As is this one.

After the first few character levels, my playing style involves bunching up baddies (entangle outdoors, web) and/or making them helpless in different ways (color spray, chromatic orb, hopelessness in IWDEE, chaos in IWDEE, holy word/symbol stun at high levels, ...). 90% of my damage is done by offensive AoE spells. Or at least multiple target spells like Thorn Spray, Skull Trap, Fireball, Smashing Wave, Lance of Disruption, ... and I must also be the only player who actually likes the druid's Whirlwind (level 8) despite its unpredictability. Both smashing wave and whirlwind have a chance to stun. Many other spells tend to only slow (Spike Stones, Acid Fog). Blind and slow are nice effects, but stun is great.

For most predictable outcomes, my rogue/thief gets as many buffs as I can memorize so they can stand in the AoE and attract baddies for 2-3 rounds until they are 'stuck'. With some more difficulty and micromanagement, it's possible to get most of them stuck/helpless without the rogue bait. Therefore, melee boosts are not really advantageous for me. Not that I mind them, I just don't prioritize them.

IWD2 Protection from Evil duration is "1 minute/level". Magic Circle against Evil is "10 rounds/level". If I understand correctly, that's exactly the same length of time. So I memorize MCaE instead of PfE, freeing up slots for Sanctuary, now that I've found a good use for it. The deflection bonus does no good to my rogue as she's already wearing deflection bonus gear, but the +2 saving throw boost is appreciated.

There is no Curse in IWD2. Bane (AoE) only affects morale and attack bonus by -1. Not useful for me. Once creatures are helpless, I don't care how high their melee stats are. And I don't want them to run away in fear if they manage to free themselves. I want them to approach my frontliners so they can be finished off. Doom inflicts a -2 saving throw penalty, but it's a single target spell, so not useful if I have a horde stuck in a spot. And I do mean horde: I try to agro and 'collect' all monsters from a map on to a single (preferably choke) point using my rogue/thief. Emotion: Despair (level 4 arcane) inflicts AoE -2 saving throw.

Btw, I just found out that Entangle coming from items can be cast indoors! Bloody hell. This is awesome. I was so pissed off at not being able to cast it for 70% of the game on my last run (IWD2). This is a game changer. Not to the outcome of my battles, but to the fun I will have sans the disappointment. The wand I just bought has 50 charges. Cool.

So when do I backstab? In IWD2, before I agro all monsters, I suss out the most dangerous spellcaster and try to take them out with one backstab (sanctuary). If there are more dangerous casters, I chug a potion of invisibility and go again. Otherwise I lead them all to my choke point. After the whole battle, I'll let my rogue explore again and backstab all stragglers who didn't follow. There's no mislead in IWD2 and not too many invisibility potions, otherwise I'd have more use out of backstabs. Backstabbing is more fun in IWDEE and BG. In IWD2, if a monster is following you, it's near impossible to go around a corner and successfully hide naturally even with huge points in both Hide and Move Silently. In IWDEE, it's possible once the cooldown has expired.