Grand High Magus of the Isles
Location: Feet on the ground, building castles in the
They match up perfectly--with the "enemies three"
description. That's all that matters, not your vision of a
In terms of importance alone, who would be
the most likely candidates. The three incarnations only
serve the purpose of giving you more information about TNO's
past. Ravel, Trias, and TTO are npcs around which all of
your quests revolve, who each hold vital information for
advancing the storyline. To bypass them as candidates and
focus instead on the the three incarnations of TNO (three of
many more, I might add) is just silly.
The three incarnations appear constantly
throughout the game as memories (remembering killing Hamrys'
father, remembering how to open the dodecahedron trap, having
an itching feeling when you choose certain dangerous dialogue
options) and as how other people remembered you - Aelwyn,
Morte and Dak'kon, the fortune teller in Clerk's Ward.
I bypass your candidates because I feel they are not
related enough to form any kind of three. How much they appear
in the game is not relevant. Deionarra says nothing about how
these enemies three will form the centre of your journey, how
they will be the focus of your travels, how they will define
your goals and set your objectives. And Pharod plays a far
greater part in the game than TTO.
Using your argument of importance, he is the third of the
three, not TTO.
His memories are wiped clean and his life essence is put
into a new body? Wow -- that sounds like reincarnation to
He was given life as a deva. That's what I said.
He lived his life how he did as a mortal prime, and was made
a celestial by the laws of the planes.
by the laws of the planes" applies perfectly to petitioners.
He was given life as a celestial. His actions as a prime
defined his fate, but he was ultimately made a celestial by
the laws of the planes -- given life as a celestial by the
laws of the planes.
Why were the incarnations
trapped inside the crystal again?
Not really. His memories of life on the
Prime are obliterated, but his personality remains. Otherwise
we would have Celestials who believe in 'might makes right'
now that they've been given a second chance. Sure, angels
fall, but they fall because during their time on the planes
they fall into temptation and forsake their ideals for other
things. They aren't *born* that way.
He wasn't created
by the planes. Altered, yes. Created, no. And Deionarra says
'given life'. Not changed, but given life.
Incarnations were plucked from TNO's mind and formed within
the crystal along with TNO by the magic of the crystal. And?
Welcome to the wonderful land of blatant contradiction.
Your usual spot has been reserved.
defined as looking out only for one’s own interests, and not
giving a damn about anyone else. This is how “evil” is
defined in AD&D.
Hah. Not quite. Selfishness is the
wanting of things for yourself. 'Evil' is the belief that
self-improvement should be pursued above all things, and
ideally this is how society should be run. Equating capitalism
to selfishness doesn't work.
Property is different to
Right. He wants to continue to torment TNO for his own
sake, despite what TNO might have to say. He’ll also kill
his mortal friends.
No he doesn't. He wants to live. In order
to accomplish that, he needs to make sure his other half and
his friends doesn't come looking for him and destroy his
physical shell. He doesn't want to make TNO suffer, although
he hates his guts. He wants TNO to forget and to kill anyone
else that knows how to find him, so he can be assured
security. That is why he sends his shadows to kill TNO - to
make him forget, not to make him die. You might say that TTO should give up life for the sake of TNO
and the multiverse, but he is not an altruist. The planes owe
Why should I die for the thing I find
most abhorrent simply because my existing causes pain to it?
You’re wrong. Your example is nothing like TNO’s
relationship with TTO. TNO is not necessarily hell-bent on
destroying TTO; in fact, he can convince TTO to rejoin him.
The TNO that convinces TTO to merge with him is not “a
psycho leap[ing] out of nowhere and [trying] to kill [TTO]
in a berserk rage.” TTO does not initially want to even give
TNO a chance – he wants to kill his friends, wipe his
memory, and throw him back down for more pain, all for his
own sake. He does not initially want to talk it out, as a
diplomatic TNO does; he wants to kill them all.
Didn't you listen to Coaxmetal? The thing
that protects itself against death merely dies another kind of
Y'see, TNO does not really convince his
mortality to join with him out of the goodness of his heart.
No St. George and the Dragon myths here. No, see, what TNO
does is threaten him with unmaking himself. Or stabbing
himself with the Blade of the Immortal. Or the fact that TTO will waste away each time TNO dies,
just as TNO will lose his mind. TNO does not convince his
mortality that altruism is a good idea. TTO does not become a charity worker. TNO
threatens him with death. And TTO is
not reconciled with TNO. He says that he will hate him for
ever and ever.
So TTO does
see it as a psycho rushing out trying to kill him. Kill him by
blade or kill him by merging, it's the same thing.
As said, Deionarra mentioned no trinity. She said nothing
about any relationship between the good, evil, and neutral.
She said they would be there, and that they would be
enemies. That’s it.
But the argument that Ravel, Trias and
TTO are far more involved in the game
The way I see it, it's that Black Isle
are not about to put in something meaningless. Everywhere in
Torment there is a hell of a lot of meaning. TNO's companions
each feel tormented in some way. Most people in the game are
somehow twisted or stretched beyond their true nature -
Fhjull, Evil Wizard and the modrons, even TTO. Many people you meet in the game have
had some contact with previous incarnations. So why have no
meaning in this? Why have this one thing empty?
should the prize go to Trias, Ravel and TTO based on how much they appear in the
game? Why not something more in tune with the rest of the
game; something deeper? Perhaps something like they are all
linked, and also all linked to *you*? Like the
"Blasus is an outstanding
piece... remarkable in its consistency and fluency... The
author manages to maintain a suspension of disbelief on the
behalf of reader whilst he amuses and entertains with his
incredibly fluid prose. He presents deep and philosophical
ideas with a flair and wit that takes the dust off those
disused old tomes and presents them to a modern youth...
Definitely a stocking filler." - The Times
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