Yet another run - any wishes?

[Sir Rechet]

A weekend with pretty much nothing coming up and my own computer not available.. so I figured I might as well do another run of IWD2 on a laptop.

Anything you guys would like me to test during the run?

I was thinking of trying a party with NOTHING BUT deep gnomes this time. Main purpose is to set a benchmark on how much the overall +3 ECL penalty affects the final reachable level. Theory says: not much at all - accuracy of which I'm specifically testing now. I'll start with a party of six to conform with the way most people play, ie. no adding fresh noobs along the way. I'm planning on doing yet another run later on with all zero ECL (apart from one DG) for the other extreme.

I'll be using the standard EXP table, not the "always some exp for kill" ones I use normally. Absolute max exp is strived for - non-critical NPCs will be 'dealt with' after they've served their purpose, quests will be delayed until latest possible moment to avoid getting less exp for kills in the area and so forth.

[Blades of Vanatar]

I would like to hear your opinion or results with a DG Monk/Sorcerer. I started to Solo one, but got sidetracked and never returned to it. WIth 6 characters, any build is viable I guess. Just looking for some expert advice.

[Proteus_za]

Try a build we havent seen before and let us know what it performs like. Pity it will be almost impossible to avoid exp penalties with such a party. One party I thought of doing was a drow war party - 3 wizards and 3 clerics. One of the clerics would probably be a druid/cleric I suppose.

[Sir Rechet]

Ouch. Monk and Sorcerer have pretty much diagonally opposite requirements for their stats, as you'd like at least decent STR and CHA while not letting DEX or CON suffer too much either. Especially tough on a Deep Gnome with the -2 STR and -4 CHA to go along with it.

While I do need at least one member with maxed CHA (for maxed quest exp), the Monk levels disqualify the character for becoming the party's spokesman. So I'd still need another. :P

Edit: I'll have to steer clear of EXP penalties since I'm specifically checking the amount of exp levels gained for an all-out ECL party. Having any one of the characters fall behind in level would effectively drop my party's average level by a notch, which WOULD be beneficial under normal circumstances but totally destroy the point of the experiment.

[Proteus_za]

So everyone either needs to be single class characters, equal levelled multi class characters, or multi classed illusionists? Ouch.

PS I'm sure the latest version of your guide includes this little tidbit, but taking ANY spellcasting class (including, at least, paladin and cleric) removes the restrictions for specialized wizards.

[Blades of Vanatar]

Originally Posted by Sir Rechet

Ouch. Monk and Sorcerer have pretty much diagonally opposite requirements for their stats, as you'd like at least decent STR and CHA while not letting DEX or CON suffer too much either. Especially tough on a Deep Gnome with the -2 STR and -4 CHA to go along with it.

While I do need at least one member with maxed CHA (for maxed quest exp), the Monk levels disqualify the character for becoming the party's spokesman. So I'd still need another. :P

Edit: I'll have to steer clear of EXP penalties since I'm specifically checking the amount of exp levels gained for an all-out ECL party. Having any one of the characters fall behind in level would effectively drop my party's average level by a notch, which WOULD be beneficial under normal circumstances but totally destroy the point of the experiment.

I realize the start would be tough for the character, since I tried to do it once before, but what I'm interested in is the later levels andd how he perfoms then. But your right, it will kill you current experiment.

[Sir Rechet]

Since I didn't explicitly mention it yet it's prudent to point out that absolutely no level-squatting or similar trickery will be used, as that'd once again spoil the "this time, we're doing it down to the very last decimal point" kind of accuracy I'm after. I'm even planning to rotate my characters to different slots so that they won't accrue too much of the rounding error exp difference you'd see normally. You know, character slot #1 gaining a smidgeon more than slot #6.

One of the Monk kits allows free multiclassing with a Sorcerer so that isn't a problem in the EXP penalties sense. I'm just pointing out that it's gotta be one of the most oddball multiclasses out there. Both classes lose a LOT by introducing too many mix-in classes so doing 50/50 is just pure fail. I'm sure it'll work adequately as some sort of a weird warrior/mage wannabe (just because Mirror Image is just so much pure win for any melee unit) but the stat shortage is going to hamstring at least some of the perks you'd hope to gain using such a combo.

[Stuntman]

In my last restart of the game, I used a DG Ranger/Monk. I found that the DG Monk was useless for too much of the early game and it just annoyed me so much. I decided to take a level of Ranger and took the Weapon Finesse feat which allows me to ignore Str. Then I multiclassed to a Monk. With a Dex and Wis of 20, I had really good AC. I can simply pump Dex to improve both my attacks and AC.

[Blades of Vanatar]

Originally Posted by Sir Rechet

One of the Monk kits allows free multiclassing with a Sorcerer so that isn't a problem in the EXP penalties sense. I'm just pointing out that it's gotta be one of the most oddball multiclasses out there. Both classes lose a LOT by introducing too many mix-in classes so doing 50/50 is just pure fail. I'm sure it'll work adequately as some sort of a weird warrior/mage wannabe (just because Mirror Image is just so much pure win for any melee unit) but the stat shortage is going to hamstring at least some of the perks you'd hope to gain using such a combo.

Multi-classing to a class that is not part of a Monk Order doesn't cause exp penalties, does it? I thought it stopped future advancement in the Monk class for doing so. But, the Monk/Sor is a viable build, it's the Monks of Shar that can do it and still advance as Monk's later on.

I initially tried Monk(1)/Sor(X). I liked it, but he was a little weak in the AT Bonus department. But the ability to use Mage Armor/Mirror Image/Blur/Haste/Bull's Strength/Stoneskin on my solo Monk was rather nice.

[spmdw45]

Originally Posted by Blades of Vanatar

Multi-classing to a class that is not part of a Monk Order doesn't cause exp penalties, does it? I thought it stopped future advancement in the Monk class for doing so.

It does not cause XP penalties, but I believe the idea was to multiclass evenly up to Monk15/Sorc15, which requires an order compatible with Sorc.

-Max

---------- Added 0 hours, 2 minutes and 47 seconds later... ----------

Originally Posted by Sir Rechet

A weekend with pretty much nothing coming up and my own computer not available.. so I figured I might as well do another run of IWD2 on a laptop.

Anything you guys would like me to test during the run?

If you have the chance, maybe you could test how many enemies are able to damage an Iron Body'ed sorc/wiz. Is it a viable alternative to high-AC as a party protector?

-Max

[kmonster]

Don't rotate your characters, it won't be a normal XP distribution any more. Better use this run to check the XP difference between first and last.

The war drums in the goblin warrens confuse me, could you take a special look at them and solve the mystery about what level of monster they're considered to be ?

How will you do the battle squares ? "Absolute max exp is strived for" includes reloading when you get gems or ammo instead of XP for finishing a level.

[Mudde]

I once started playing with an all-DG party but only reaced around chapter 2 before realising that the lack of multiclassing possibilities was quite booring (I never build chars with XP-penalties, so most of them had to be pure classes). I later restarted with an "all short-races" party with 2 DG, 1 Rock Gnome, 2 halflings and a gray dwarf (slightly modified with dalekeeper to balance that race out).

My all-DG-party consisted of:

rogue1/monk1/illusionistX - standard high-AC decoy which planed to take some odd lvls in other classes later on

rogue1/illusionistX - standard wiz with maxed int and some skills.

Banite Cleric - healer / main damage-dealer

Druid - almost the same role as the cleric

Sorc - could reach enough cha in time...

bardX/clericX - (ab-)using lingering song while doing some damage and healing

This gave me 1 decoy, 3 tanks, 3 spellcasters and many characters with quite high AC that really helped in the beginning.

[kmonster]

You could play a game without spending a single skill point for concentration.
I don't think it will make a difference during the game but it will show how overrated concentration skill is (Some guides even recommend wasting 5-7 stat points to get 14 extra concentration skill).

[crucis]

I don't know if concentration is overrated or not, but Kmonster's suggestion is an interesting one regardless...

[spmdw45]

Originally Posted by crucis

I don't know if concentration is overrated or not, but Kmonster's suggestion is an interesting one regardless...

I see Concentration as moderately useful for when things go south (IIRC you need to make a Concentration check to cast spells at all while in melee combat, with or without being damaged). However, I see people do things like recommend human sorcerers over aasimar because aasimar "need" to spend points on Int so they can have maxed Concentration and also enough Spellcraft to get Spirit of Flame... this seems short-sighted to me, since an extra +1 DC is worth more than 10 extra points in Concentration (if you have an aasimar with 3 Int, that is, who has to spend 10 levels of skill points on Spellcraft instead of Concentration).

Edit: Oh, I get it now--kmonster is suggesting testing exactly how useful Concentration is. Good idea.

-Max

[Stuntman]

Originally Posted by crucis

I don't know if concentration is overrated or not, but Kmonster's suggestion is an interesting one regardless...

I don't find that concentration for a spellcaster is all that useful. I find I just keep my spellcasters at the back and they do fine. Even my cleric in the front lines doesn't seem to have much problems casting spells. I only put points to concentration when I have some left over or if I'm going for Maximise Damage with my fighter.

[Sir Rechet]

Here's the party setup. I'm only going to play through normal mode, no HOF this time.

DG Barbarian - normal tank, just enough AC for tanking in normal mode.
DG Monk - for more brute force plus I've always wanted to try one.
DG Painbearer of Ilmater - for cleric buffs and a minor quest at Kuldahar. Ranged support with sling.
DG Druid - long range support (low STR), will use Angurvadal +5 (mod item, sets STR to 22) later.
DG Rogue1/Pally1/Illusionist - ye olde F/M/T wannabe.
DG Sorcerer - since I wanted a diplomat. 14 CHA ftw.

First noteworthy thing: A druid with low STR is a pain to play as they don't get to use bows or even crossbows, unless spending feat points and/or with mix-in levels. Sling with STR penalty is awfully ineffective. Her weapon of choice won't appear until I've trudged myself into Kuldahar.. which is a drag, to put it mildly.

Also: Dinged to level three (!) just prior to Shaengarne Bridge battle. Wouldn't have gotten there normally but I triggered a couple random encounters when trying to rest on my way there.

[crucis]

Originally Posted by Sir Rechet

First noteworthy thing: A druid with low STR is a pain to play as they don't get to use bows or even crossbows, unless spending feat points and/or with mix-in levels.

A good reason to play an elven druid....

Sling with STR penalty is awfully ineffective.

Too true. I guess that I've never given slings enough respect. They've always seemed like second class ranged weapons. But the people who have pointed out that slings get the STR bonus really on the mark when they claim that they are a fine ranged weapon for high STR characters... (and you can use a shield at the same time and increase your AC, which isn't a bad thing either).

I guess that the problem is that when you look at the base damage for an arrow (1d6), bolt (1d8), and sling bullet (1d4), the bullet appears weak by comparison. But the base damage doesn't account for the STR bonus, which for a STR 16 or higher can be +3 dp or more per hit.

[spmdw45]

Originally Posted by Sir Rechet

DG Sorcerer - since I wanted a diplomat. 14 CHA ftw.

Heh.

-Max

[kmonster]

With your low strength druid you can test how effective arctic boars are for tanking. At level 5 the shapeshift should be superior to the meleers.

[Sir Rechet]

Oh, the shapeshifts! That's what I forgot about how I managed my druid diplomat during the early phases of my run-through.

Although it will be a MAJOR loss to AC.

[kmonster]

Because of the damage resistances the boar should be even less vulnerable than the normal form. Casting cat's grace after shapeshifting will improve the AC. If druids still benefit from the deep gnome bonus to AC and a mage armor spell (do they ?) while shapeshifted there won't be an AC difference.

[spmdw45]

Originally Posted by kmonster

Because of the damage resistances the boar should be even less vulnerable than the normal form. Casting cat's grace after shapeshifting will improve the AC. If druids still benefit from the deep gnome bonus to AC and a mage armor spell (do they ?) while shapeshifted there won't be an AC difference.

They lose the DG +4, and the mage armor, although you can recast mage armor after they shift. In fact, they even lose Haste effects. I'm not sure what else gets lost upon shapeshift, but Improved Haste gets lost for sure.

-Max

[Sir Rechet]

Pretty much EVERYTHING that has to do with AC gets lost during shapeshifts - racial AC bonus, feat bonuses (including Expertise), Armor/Shield/Deflection/Generic bonuses from items and/or spells. Dexterity bonus kinda remains but it's not your own DEX that matters but the one you get from the shapeshift. Monk AC bonus is the only one I know that stays.

You can rebuff the spells after shapeshifting and they'll take effect but you'll lose them again when you return to humanoid form.

Edit: Ready to begin Chapter Two now and I still have quite a bit remaining to level six. Although the gap is starting to narrow as I'm seeing much higher kill exp that I'm used to at this point.

[spmdw45]

It turns out Haste is removed when you shapeshift (not just the AC bonus, the extra speed is lost too) but Stoneskin stays. So perhaps other defensive buffs like Invis/Blink would stay too.

-Max